Trying to make lemonade from 308 lemons.

BillUSN1

Guys bare with me, this could turn into another long thread.

I recently picked up a couple 308 cores.
Both are the wide blocks.
But after that I'm having some difficulty in determining exactly what I got.
The more I read a research, the more I get confused. I've been thru the maint manuals, the parts manuals and the serial number guides and google search.
It doesn't help when there's 50+ yrs of previous owners parts swaps and engine rebuilds.

So here's what I'm working with.
Please chime in on any correct/additional info.

Engine 1
Appears to be a 1954 Hornet 6
Serial number is 6296660 yep, just my luck, and engine with a 666 serial number!
The casting number is 310411
Build date looks like 193. Which I think is 9Jan53.

Head is a aluminum H145.
And the 2bbl manifold.











Engine 2

This one gets a little interesting.
I thought by the serial number it was a 56 Hornet 6, but.....
Serial number F10269
Cast number 5325000
Date 125

It has the steel H145 head.
And the early Twin H manifold
But it has the mechanical lifters which doesn't prove anything since I also found the valve springs were replaced upside down, so it's had a rebuild and a valve job.





Thanks,
Bill

Ric West IN

Hi Bill,
Thanks for your detailed narrative and pictures!
You are close on the engines. I93 translates as Sept. 9th 53 as the "pour" date.
This casting number is a 1954 model only. Head, Al H145 is the head usually found on 1951 and 52

The second engine, casting # 532500 is a 1956 with a "pour" date of Sept. 2nd, 1955.

Hope this helps,

"Ric"

BillUSN1

OK, thanks. So the first digit of the cast date is always a letter. So it's a lower case L. That is so odd compared to most stampings the skip or avoid Ii, lL and 1 due to them looking so close.

I thought I had read that the H 145 heads were cast in alum and steel and were both early 50's. The later heads were cast with the engine size on them.
So the steel head on the 56 block must have been swapped also.

I started to prep them to get them to rotate so I could evaluate each. As with most old engines that are removed from vehicles, you start to find out "why" they were removed.

The 54 engine was supposed to be a runner and we actually moved the crank by hand with the flywheel. That was a good thing. So I was able to persuade all the plugs to come out without pulling any of the alum threads with them!
Then I added about 10 squirts of trans fluid/mineral spirits into each cylinder.Then just moved on to the 56.

I did the same on the 56.

I removed the plugs and shot some fluid in each cylinder.



Then I tried everything I could to get it to rotate.
No joy.
So I started digging deeper.

I started to remove the head bolts.
whew, that was fun.




I found the 1956 only, center bolt modification to cure the blown head gasket problem! They upgraded to 5/8"


Got the head off.
Front 3 cylinders, not too bad.


Back 3, things get a little ugly. Looks like the 5/8 bolt upgrade in the center worked but they needed to add it to the back of the head too.



I got all the corrosion cleaned out and wire wheeled the cylinder and then stuck a chunk of wood in the cylinder and beat it with a 2lb maul. I have actually got the piston to move so there may be hope!




I also measured the cylinders to compare with the manual.
That really confused me. It list the 308 as having a smaller bore than the 262. But it's supposed to be a wider block for a bigger bore.
So I assumed the manual was wrong and the bore of 3 3/16 is actually 3 13/16. Which means these bores are already .020 over. and now have rust pits to bore out.
So how big can you bore? Or do you sleeve since these are the softer blocks already?



Just to satisfy curiosity, I compared the wide and narrow head gasket. The narrow is my 262.

bob ward

Conventional wisdom says the later blocks are softer, (cheapened, by implication?) but there was a post on here 3 or 4 years ago where a member went to the trouble of having some metal from a later block and a stepdown block laboratory tested for composition. 

Turns out the samples were exactly the same composition. 

Can't find that post at the moment, hopefully the original poster will chime in. Anyone remember who it was?

TwinH

Interesting Bill. For comparison my  F8697 , D145 , 532500 engine came to me as a spare for a 308 powered 49 sedan I bought from an estate on Ebay.  It was seemingly a NOS engine but came to me without intake and exhaust manifolds and timing chain and cover missing. It had an iron head held on loosely with a few bolts.
 Yours seems to have an earlier long crank in it too which makes it easier to mate up with the earlier trans. Mine had the short crank as did the engine in the 49 which took a special "adapter" flywheel to mate with my 49's single lever trans. Mine also had the hydraulic lifters so it seems sure yours has been rebuilt/modified along the way. Thanks for sharing and look forward to seeing your build come together.    Jeff

hudsontech

The 1954 engine is a 1954 engine - the serial number indicates the engine was bolted to a  1954 Model 6D built sometime in March 1954.

 The other engine is a 1956 308 - but we don't have a monthly break-down for 55-57.  Starting number for 1956 308 engines was F-8601.

Hudsonly,
Alex Burr
Memphis, TN

BillUSN1

Twin H,
Thanks for the great pics and the crank confirmation. I had not read anywhere about a early/long crank fitting the later rear main seal block. That was going to be one of my questions and the reason I was considering the 56 block. I had read the rear main was an improvement over the early rear main seal.

Alex, Thanks for the confirmation on years. I promise, I read a lot of the manuals you posted looking for the answers.

This 56 308 just gets more and more confusing.
I finally got all 6 pistons out. A couple had wrong numbers stamped on them so there must have been some machine work and swapping of parts.

I also noticed both 308s have the front balancer beat on with a hammer. Guess it's normal to try and pound them off vice using a puller?

I did get all the valve springs and valves out and I got the cam out.
Just thinking ahead....a cam swap with the motor in the frame would not be an easy task. I did see the factory addressed this by providing special little lifter clips to hold them up and off the cam so you can slide it out. That must have been fun to do.

Speaking of cams, I got the 308 cam out and it's the 306344A. So I did more searching and it seems that is basically the everyday stock cam. No one claims to have found any difference from the original 306344 cam.




That's where I'm at with the 56 308.
Next is checking out the 54.

I set it up on the ground and connected a starter, what a pain that turned out to be! Had the bendix stuck toward the flywheel and it took an hour to figure that out while trying to figure out how to get the starter out of the hole when the bendix won't clear the flywheel.
Would have been so much easier if the starter had thru bolts and not those special studs that just spin as you try to unscrew the nuts!!! What a pain.

Once I got the starter mounted on the 308 I spun it over and right now it appears I must have a bunch of stuck valves because I only had compression on the #1 hole.

More fun to come!!

BillUSN1

Went back at it today when I got a little free time.
I popped the side covers and snapped the valves open and closed with the cylinder on TDC. I worked them all till they returned closed.
I was surprised at how clean it was under the covers of this engine.




Once they were all good I installed a distr, hooked up a battery and jumper wire and filled the carb with gas then fired it up. Once I got all the trans fluid out of the cylinders it started to run better and better.
So I grabbed the camera and took a short video of the restart.

http://youtu.be/VV-kAn4LSU0

Then I did another compression check and while still not perfect is a lot better ranging from 115 for the low and about 135 for the high.

So now I'm left with the decision, should I continue to get the original 262 running or just reseal this 308 and drop it in?

Kdancy

Well, putting the 308 in would be less money for sure.
I would install a new head gasket and check the oil pump gear and timing chain first.

SuperDave

Given equal condition I would opt for the 262. A lot smoother and less prone to blown gaskets. Warmed over a bit with twin H and electronic ignition, a 262 is no slouch. No matter which you use, a kid with a Honda and a coffee can muffler will dust you off at a light.

BillUSN1

Can't believe it's been 2yrs already!

I'm finally getting ready to drop off one of these blocks to the machine shop! Found an old flat head shop near me that is pretty well known. Dave Tatom flatheads.

Just thinking out loud and doing a little planning...

If you look back on this thread, it seems I had a replacement 56 block was used but all the internals appear to be from an earlier 308 eith the long crank and mech lifters.

So my thought was... has anyone actually tried to retrofit hyd lifters into one of these blocks?

Obviously it would take machining the bores larger and the dia that rides on the cam may be an issue due to the cam profile, but it seams it would be doable. From what I have seen, the 56 1yr only lifters are not a viable option.

Since I went with the clifford headers, valve adjustment will not be a pleasant task!

Also, given the rust in the #6 cyl, what is the max over bore on the 308? If I have to opt for a sleeve then I may just go with the 54 block and have the bolts holes increased to 1/2". May be a toss up on cost?

Next question, If I go with the 56 block, is there really any need to do any more relief cut? I read these blocks were already improved over the earlier years. So if I went with the 54 block then the factory relief cut is less than the 56 block.

 

The plans right now is mild mods with new cam, maybe the 7x version, for now it will be the twin H manifold and the dual EFI as shown elsewhere. Alum head, or maybe the later 232 head for the smaller chamber if I can find one. Headers, GM 200 4R trans, Ford 8.8 rear if I can find the right one. If not then maybe one of my IH scout D44's. Got a few of them. Just have to deal with bolt pattern for wheels. And disc conversion in the front.

Future mods may include a home built intake for MPFI and then maybe even a small turbo for a little bottom end boost! Just to be different.

Thanks for any feed back.