Picture of Wasp steering gear

Kdancy

http://s294.photobucket.com/user/studebaker2/media/53 Hudson Wasp Steering box - Gears/DSCF2743_zpse5f7fcdd.jpg.html

http://s294.photobucket.com/user/studebaker2/media/53 Hudson Wasp Steering box - Gears/DSCF2742_zpsf6916811.jpg.html

Quality control issue with supplier?

Corrected link--

Kdancy

Corrected the photo link!

Lee ODell

Possible gear box leak. Low gear oil level?
Lee O'Dell

Kdancy

Oil level was full and smelled like it was 60 years old! It doesn't look like a wear issue to me as much as a casting flaw the way it is cratered.

parkerm

So what do you do with that? Replace it, or weld it and then machine it back down to it's original size?

Kdancy

Lares corp told me it wasn't repairable. They found a new gear for 350.00.
I have a good used one coming. In the mean time I'm checking with a gear company that
I have done business with before (made me new Studebaker V8 timing gears) to see how much cost would be to reproduce these. I was told that only about 1 in 5 SWB steering gears were good. Probably most being driven have defective gears.
The gear looks to be pressed on a keyed shaft (steering shaft). I think welding up the gear and cutting back down would be a process in itself because of the shape and angle of the "screw". And I would guess it would need to be hardened.

lostmind

Just curious , but I seem to remember guys putting long wheelbase steering boxes in the swb cars.

Any one done this?

Kdancy

There was an old post on the classiccar site talking about the swap. I tried then to get that info and never could. I can't pull that discussion up now.

SuperDave

I disassembled a LWB steering sector and found that the gear is pressed on and not intended to be removed, I suppose it could be welded. I sawed the gear off and put a Ujoint in place of the worm. Cut a large portion off the casting so I could connect it to a rack and pinion. I'll bet the SWB version is the same.

There has to be a good used one out there somewhere.

Kdancy

Dave, this one is "keyed" to the shaft. Were the lwb ones installed the same?

SuperDave

Sure looks the same to me.

Kdancy

Here is one that Mel pulled for me and found it to be toast as well.
http://s294.photobucket.com/user/studebaker2/media/53 Hudson Wasp Steering box - Gears/FaulksSWBsteeringgear_zps4846b7ff.jpg.html?sort=6&o=25

lostmind

Seems to be a quality control problem. I'm pretty sure the LWB gear box will go in , just don't remember the

modifications needed. All the guys I know that did it have passed on to Hudson Heaven.

Kdancy

Mel's second one he sent to me -- Also bad. That makes 5 I have looked at that are all defective.

SuperDave

Kerry,

I have a long wheel base  column and gear I took out of my 49 project when I switched to HydraMatic. I put a 51 Hornet column and sector in.  It's your if you want to experiment. I am going to Claremont for the OBC get together. I'll bring it along if you want to meet up with us. We will be staying in the Winter Garden RV Resort. Friday night through Sunday.

Kdancy

Another update on the SWB gear issue.

I obtained one from Mel Faulk that only had a small 1/2 section that had
started "peeling". I cleaned it and one of the really bad ones up
very good with degreaser and carb cleaner then took them to a welding shop to
see if the bad area could be tig welded then ground for repair, first using the
really bad one to set the machine up.

 In a nutshell, they couldn't get a good weld with anything but stick
weld. The underneath surface kept bubbling up like there were air pockets in
the gear core.  I still suspect most of
these were a manufacturing issue.

The stick weld held but I don't see a good way to grind it for proper fit then
you would need to harden it but that could be done.

 So, now I'm looking for a good one that doesn't have any issues.

48Sed

I have taken apart 5 boxes in the last couple of weeks from 1946-47 and found the same troubles in all of them. The boxes were full of oil by the way and no rust issues. 

It looks like this trouble was happening way before the Wasp.

Check out where the lower bearing rides,what a rough surface.

Kdancy

yes, that galling looks the same. wonder how the LWB stepdowns look now?

Kdancy

Here is my conversation with Lares about this issue ---

Good Morning,

Recently you rebuilt a 1952 Hudson Wasp Steering box for me.

In my research of these boxes it seems that Hudson had a quality control issue

with the 50-54 short wheelbase cars as owners of the long wheel base cars
(48-54 stepdowns) don’t

seem to have the steering gear issues that the others have.

Here is my photobucket album pictures of the SWB gears I have looked at.

http://s294.photobucket.com/user/studebaker2/library/53%20Hudson%20Wasp%20Steering%20box%20-%20Gears?sort=3&page=1

In total, I have looked at 7 different steering boxes built from 1950-53, all with
the same issue, galling and cratering of the steering shaft worm gear.

I’m concerned about even using an NOS gear as it will probably do the same if
driven enough.

Do you think a re-manufactor of these gears would cure the issue with better
quality metal?

If so, do you have an idea who might be able to make them?

Kerry

Paul Lares

Kerry,

I understand your concern. That style steering gear was
used by many different applications. It isn't that there is a quality control issue
it is that the old seals do not hold the original oil in the gear and over time
the oil leaks out causing the worm and sector shaft and/or roller to run dry on
each other. We used newer style seals and hard pack grease. The newer seals
prevent any seepage and the grease we use has polymers to prevent separation
that would allow any oil to leak out. So this really isn't an issue anymore.

Running the steering gear dry will cause the galling. The
cratering or pitting is caused from moisture getting into the steering gear.
The newer seals we use prevents that from happening.

Kerry

--It is strange that out of 7 I looked at all had the
same issue and all were full of oil-grease. I can understand the moisture
problem, but the cratering seems to be metal quality and not the typical
pitting from moisture.

I might add that I didn't see any water or moisture in
any of those boxes.

Paul Lares

The original oils were nothing compared to the oils and
greases used today. They provided lubrication but didn't necessarily prevent
moisture from eroding the metals. One thing to remember about the moving part
in the steering gear is that they are all case hardened. Typically the worm and
roller style are carburized. Now I'm not saying that originally they weren't carburized
but if you are looking for a newer replacement worm they will be extremely hard
to find if they are even available.

Kerry

Ok, that makes sense to me, I was wondering about the
original oil-grease quality.

The one you re-built for me had a good gear. The only one
Ive seen.

Next question, does the steering shaft gear and the
pinion gear need to be a matched set? much like a ring and pinion?

Paul Lares

I was just looking at your pictures and I see the wear
that you are talking about. I can tell you that I have seem wear like this in
several steering gears not just Hudson's. Especially if they are more than 50
years old. We need to remember that 90% of a steering gears life is rocking
back and forth on the center position. After 60 years that much wear could be
expected.

Yes the worm and sector shaft roller must match. If they
do not match the gear will not adjust properly and may have play or binding
issues.

Kerry

So, getting one without the other won't last?

You had a new steering shaft gear, but we would need to
come up with an nos pinion gear to match?

Paul Lares

Depends on the condition of the other part. They don't
always have to replaced in pairs. If the roller is in great shape but the worm
in chewed up then you wouldn't necessarily have to replace the roller and vice
versa.

Kerry

ok, I haven't seen a roller in bad condition, only the
worm.

Paul Lares

Be aware that the wear points on the roller are not only
limited to the teeth that ride on the worm gear.

Kerry

Ok, thanks for your info, I'll be sending another box soon.

 

 

Kdancy

Ken, I just called and talked with Tim at Midwest Re-manufacturing LLC.
That is the same gear. He is going to pull up the numbers on the Hudson steering box and call me
back tomorrow morning with the info.
Thanks,

J Spencer

Seems to be a quality control problem. I'm pretty sure the LWB gear box will go in , just don't remember the

modifications needed. All the guys I know that did it have passed on to Hudson Heaven.

Years ago I spoke with a member that put a LWB steering gear in a Pacemaker convertable.  He said" If I had known how much work (trouble) it was I would not have done it, but now that it is in I like it" As I recall he said that the shaft is longer and has to be shortened and also mentioned something about the mounting and pitman arm,- but I don't remember what.  That was in 1988 @ the York, Pa Nationals

I'll bet my 51 Pacemaker has the same problem because on a right turn it 'catches'.  I have a whole gear from a 1954 swb that seem OK on the floor, sounds like I should remove the cover and inspect it before  I put it in.

Jim Spencer

Western New York Chapter

Kdancy

Jim, I bet that is exactly the same problem. You should take the 54 box cover off and check the worm gear in that one before using.

Kdancy

Picture of gear split in half.

48Sed

Can you post a picture of the shaft showing the worm gear end?

Thanks

Kdancy

It was tried with stick, mig and tig by a certified welder that I've had weld some pretty tricky stuff over the years. Each time air pocket or bubbles, just like before welding, worked up into the weld. I took a grinder and ground down to see what I could find under the weld before cutting it in half.
I talked to several companies that make gears and none could reproduce that worm gear because of the shape of the gear splines or ridges. The same for trying to machine the welds back to proper surface for matching the roller gear.
The one reproduction Chrysler gear is actually made in India.

J Spencer

Jim, I bet that is exactly the same problem. You should take the 54 box cover off and check the worm gear in that one before using.

Kdancy, I took the cover off the 54 box and sure enough it has a pit in it, not as bad as some, but still.?/ I also posted in another post the interchange of the steering columm with my 51.Seems logical by changing the tube/shifter out but Hollender interchange list 50-53 OK 54 by itself, also Lares shows same. Maybe difference in ratios?? Any one done it knows.  Photo of the 54 box enclosed