DG automatic transmission used in 54

Kdancy

Thought I'd put this info in its own thread so it doesn't get lost in the T-86 thread.

The DG-150-200 and 250 were also used by Studebaker (helped design it) until they switched to the BW Flightomatic.
 The DG is a Detroit Gear transmission, division of BW.
http://www.studebaker-info.org/tech/transmission/DG/dgmaint1.html
http://www.mbca.org/forum/mercedes-historians-transmissions
http://www.autotran.us/3bakits1.html

"The rebuilding kit I sell is a universal kit that fits all cars
and trucks that use a 3 Band Automatic Transmission manufactured by Detroit
Gear. It fits the models DG150, DG200 and the DG250 transmissions."
This transmission is known to have been used in the following
carsand trucks.
Hudson, Humber, International-Divco,
JaguarMark VII,
  Jaguar 3.5 Litre, Jaguar
'S' type (1963-68), Mercedes 300d, Post
Office-Pony Express, Rover 3 Litre and last but not least Studebaker.

"Borg Warner - Detroit Gear 250 Transmission -
 The Studebaker Automatic Drive transmission was - and is - one very fine 
transmission. Popular Science did a very nice piece on the Automatic Drive 
in 1950.

 Automatic Drive was a joint effort of Studebaker and Borg-Warner (Detroit 
Gear Division). The transmission allows the driver to switch from torque 
converter-gear drive to direct drive and back again at any speed between 18 
mph and 58 mph. Above 58, the torque converter is always locked out, below 
18 it is always locked in.

 Popular Science gave this summary of what a driver can do with Automatic 
Drive:

 "One criticism often voiced against automatic transmissions is that they 
deprive the driver of choice. That this isn't true of the Studebaker/Borg-
Warner drive is shown by the following description of what happens when the 
selector lever is in the drive position. It's also eloquent proof that 
motorists must understand their transmissions to get the most out of them.

 "At the moment of starting, with the selector lever at "D," the power 
train is through the torque converter and intermediate gear. Starting 
torque ratio in the transmission (not counting the advantage of rear-axle 
ratio) is 3.08 to 1, or more than three turns of the engine crankshaft for 
every turn of the propeller shaft. Automatic shifts from intermediate gear 
to direct drive occur within the following limits, depending on speed, 
throttle position and load:

 "1. Starting with a very light accelerator depression, the transmission 
shifts from intermediate to direct at about 18 mph.  
 "2. Starting with full throttle (not depressed past the kick-down abutment 
on the floor-board), the transmission shifts into direct at about 35 
mph.

 "3. Staring with any accelerator depression between between light and full 
throttle, the transmission shifts into direct between 18 and 35 mph, depending 
on accelerator position.

 "4. Starting with full throttle and accelerator depressed past the kick-
down point, the shift into direct drive occurs at about 58 mph.

 "5. Coasting in direct with accelerator released, the transmission downshifts 
into intermediate gear plus converter at 12 mph.

 6. Direct drive may be over-ruled to provide added torque available in 
intermediate by depressing the throttle to the kick-down point at any
 speed below 50 mph."

 I also can attest to the economy of the transmission. My 55 Commander regular 
turns in 24-26 mpg.

 Leighzer

------------------------
> I never thought it was right and if you reved the engine up at all in
>nuetral you would hear a loud clunk. >(Gordon Bueling)<<<

Gordon,
My DG250M does the same thing but you have to rev it up pretty high. What
causes that?
My tranny works great, with the exception of reverse.
-------------
That is the convertor going into lock up mode.  This is a good way to
destroy
something.  You should not rev these cars (AT's) to high rpm in neutral or
park.  I learned the hard way about 40 years ago.  Gary L.
----
I don't know about any other modern cars, but BMW has a very clear warning
not to rev the motor of an automatic trans car with it in neutral or park.
Substantial damage to the trans will result."

Lance

Kerry, This is the reason people want the GM hydramatic tranny in their stepdowns. The only reason BW automatics were put in was because of the fire at the GM hydramatic plant. Otherwise they would have never seen the light of day in a Hudson. BW great 3 speed and overdrives but stay away from automatics.

J Spencer

Can't say as I have ever heard of this tranny in a Hudson.  Anyone out here had one??   Is this a true Automatic outside of the torque converter in the description it sounds like the way a regular standard tranny with overdrive operates????   I'm confused.  Was it 1954 only??

Glowplug

Jim:  I have two 1954 Hudsons equipped with this transmission. 

J Spencer

 Ok my confusion is lessoned now. I just looked it up in an old repair manual.  I thought it might have been a 3rd tranny  that was used also.

Kdancy

Lance, I'm aware of why Hudson used them in 54. I've had a couple and they are very good transmissions when working properly. But as with even the hydromatics, it's getting hard to actually find anyone that works on them.
If not building a totally stock car, next time I'll update to a GM series automatic OD transmission.

RL Chilton

I hope Gus Souza has taken on an apprentice in rebuilding the hydramatics, and I'm sure there are others out there involved with other marques that rebuild them, as they were used in GM's cars far more than in Hudsons.  I'm sure the Cadillac forum or GM forum, or even the CCCA forum could direct one to more rebuilders that are out there, but you are right, Kerry.  Every day that passes means there is less of a demand to have them rebuilt.  I wish I had the knowledge and tools!  

Glowplug

In the realm of vanishing knowledge, I suggested to Larry Kennedy that the planners for the last national HET ask John Fromm video the tech sessions and sell them to assure that knowledge goes to all. John just posted that these videos are now for sale. Gus Souza was one of the presenters captured on video. There are equally knowledgeable tech experts who provide specialized service for classic cars that is applicable to HET vehicles. So, I challenge all who read this... Video the next tech session and share it with others.

Glowplug

Fat finger cell phone post removed

ESSX28-1

In the realm of vanishing knowledge, I suggested to Larry Kennedy that the planners for the last national HET ask John Fromm video the tech sessions and sell them to assure that knowledge goes to all. John just posted that these videos are now for sale. Gus Souza was one of the presenters captured on video. There are equally knowledgeable tech experts who provide specialized service for classic cars that is applicable to HET vehicles. So, I challenge all who read this... Video the next tech session and share it with others.

The New Zealand HET Club sell a video of the tech session that Geoff Clark gave at the 2009 Centennial meet on on fitting tubes & tires to split rims, especially relevant to 28 & 29 Hudson & Essex. The DVD comes with with a copy of Geoff's article on destressing split rims. $$10.00 plus postage ex NZ.  Email me at HETDavid@websters.co.nz

ESSX28-1

Drop the HET from my email address above, there to fool spambots only. thank

53jetman

Doc Hubler  -  The very first post here explains that Kdancy has rebuild kits for the DG250 transmissions, and apparently has good knowledge as to what makes this transmission tic.  I always liked the smoothness of the BW in the Hornet plus the fact that the cars so equiped had new found fuel economy.  Of the 1954's we sold after the production ceased (well into mid 1955) most of our customers wanting a real Hudson would opt for a Hornet with the BW due to the economy factor if one could be found.

onerare39

From another post.

When taking my car to the trans shop in Jan of this year, I said it has a B & W Trans in it.  They said what?

This is after spending a bunch of money at another trans shop 2 years ago, that also said "what"?  so I had to do my research, as I had ordered the original parts from them in the first place.  These people are the gurus of Borg Warner transmissions.  Any year.  

My trans model DG-200

Northeast Transmission

Winchester, Ohio

938-442-2811

Also Fatsco Transmission in New Jersey.

800-524-0485

Frankvintagefullflowcom

If anyone cares, I have a flywheel and torque converter (torus?) for that transmission. I don't ever expect to need it so it's yours for the shipping cost. I don't know if there were any differences in these units between various models. 
Frank

onerare39

Frank, I care, but I already have two spares.

Merry Christmas!

John Forkner

RL Chilton

Well, I have driven John's car and I can say that it performs flawlessly, as one would expect a Hudson should. 

That said, I do not have a B&W tranny, and that was my only experience with them.  However, I do have quite a bit of experience with Hydramatics, which I can say is a fine transmission.  However, these days, there is a serious problem, not with the tranny, but with the motor mounts.  The modern day replacement transmission mounts for the Hyras are a very hard vulcanized rubber, much like the rubber on your tire treads.  Because of this, it makes the Hydra-matic seem like it is a hard-shifting tranny.  Even more so with a freshly rebuilt unit.  The original tranny mounts were a very soft spongy-type of rubber and allowed the tranny to move under shifting, without transferring the shock to the frame.  

I have known a few Hudson folks that were bemoaning the shifting of the Hydras, and worked hard to get rid of them, when, in fact, the mounts are the real culprit.  

For that reason, anyone that has good, original mounts and would like to sell them, I would be VERY interested in a couple of sets.   

onerare39

Here's what you will see on a 54  Detroit Gear, Borg-Warner transmission,  this is a DG-200.

53jetman

Doc   -   According to the Master Parts Book for 1948 thru 1954, the Model DG200 was the only unit that Hudson used during their short run using the BW or Detroit Gear Automatic.  There again, Kdancy says that he has the rebuild kits that apply to all models.

EssexAdv

I have a BW as well as a Hydro in another. They are both fine transmissions when properly maintained.  However, don't keep them right and you have problems.  But the problems with the Hydro seem to be easier to live with.  I can't begin to tell you how many hydros I have been I where the 2nd - 3rd slip is hard , the trans leaks like crazy or the downshift pawl is broken.  But even with these problems they will still go.  Now this is where the maintenance difference is.  All the Hydro pumps and governors are inside the case if the trans leaks, just put more fluid in it and keep going.  

On a BW the pumps and governors are outside the case.  Should the gasket start to leak on a BW pump output pressure will suffer thereby causing extra wear on the bands and clutches so the trans wears out.

If you are fortunate enough to have a BW auto in your car, you will get better economy, a quitter ride, due tot the lock up converter,  and much nicer shift points. 

Moral of the story, keep whichever transmission you have leak free and properly adjusted and you will be fine

Oh BTW, I have a recall notice from Hudson which discusses a change in the dipstick for the BW. It seems the first ones starved a bit for fluid.  I have a replacement dipstick and the full mark is a bit higher,  So apparently there was a problem and it was looked after.  Maybe this is why the BW has a bum rap

Kdancy

Jetman, I don't sell the rebuild kits, I was just posting places-vendors that do sell them

53jetman

Sorry Kerry, I guess I misunderstood your post.