Hornet vs Commodore 6 1950-52

KTRON

When the Commodore 6 and Hornet were sold side by side in 1950-1952, what was the selling point between the two?

Both look exactly the same to my untrained eye, with exception that the Hornet had the optional 308 engine instead of the 262?

And what might the differences be between the Commodore 6 and Commodore 8 in those years? Just the engine? The wheelbase looks the same,

Thanks,
Chris

KTRON

Thanks for the indepth response. You would be surprised what comes up when you type "1950 Hudson Hornet" into google, without knowing that they never produced any in 1950! I am more or less trying to figure out which 1949-54 step down I want. I really like the look of the 4 door models, they look better proportioned than the 2 door models,

How does the 254 cubic inch I8 of the commodore compare to the 262/308 inline 6's? I live in a pretty populated area where 55mph speed zones are more or less 70-90mph free-for-alls. The first vehicle I bought was gearbound to 52mph, before I put a 10 speed overdrive in it, it was no fun being passed by everyone! Is a stock 308 in a Hornet able to keep up with modern traffic? Ive looked all over youtube for videos of them, and only found a few videos of a 50 pacemaker/53 hornet both with 262's moving at 70mph (according to the gauge) on the highway, but were still being passed by a majority of the traffic (wrong cable drive adapter on the speedometer??) Id really like to build a daily drive out of one, is it possible to get a 65mph good mileage cruiser out of one?  I see aftermarket disc brakes can be had, which sound like a necessity with how wrecklessly people drive today

Chris

bob ward

A Hornet with a 3.08 rear end (usually found in a hydramatic) will keep up with the traffic all day long.

J Lombard

Bob:

How can you tell what type rear end I have in my Hornet?

thanks

J

KTRON

J, If you jack up the car so that one of the rear tires is off the ground, with the transmission in neutral, mark the tire with chalk on one face, and dab the driveshaft with some white-out. You can deduce the ratio in the rear end by seeing how many times the driveshaft turns for every 1 rotation of the wheel.

Chris

J Lombard

Chris, thanks a million. Isn't putting one of these cars back on the road a lot of fun????

J

befishers1

"How does the 254 cubic inch I8 of the commodore compare to the 262/308 inline 6's?"

I drive an I8, 3 spd around town and it is very capable of non-interstate speeds (60) with the standard rear end ratio.

The bigger issue is if you want to drive it a lot the I8 uses babbit bearings meaning an engine overhaul is a lot more expensive to do well, not a big deal if you are driving 2,000 miles a year but if you drive daily then you are looking at both a lot of cost and losing your block to a machine shop (I looked around a lot and there are only a handful in the country I would trust re-babbiting your bearings) for many months during the overhaul.

All around the 308 has much more availability for parts, makes more power, and is more "modern" than the I8.  Although it is a lot of fun to watch people as they see 8 plugs in a row - I believe the last I8s were made in around 54 in any quantity (Pontiac I believe) meaning very few I8s are still around and running.

cpr3333

If you like the look of the 4-door but only want two doors, look at the brougham - same roofline, 2 fewer doors.

As to the Hornet thing, it seems to be a kneejerk response to the word Hudson among non-Hudson folks.  You barely get finished saying you own a Hudson and they are already saying "Oh - a Hornet" as if Hudson never made anything else.  Not surprising that the internet has similar issues. 

If you want the real story, keep asking quetions here - these guys collectively know more about Hudsons than you will find from any other sources combined.

Nevada Hudson

Packard still had a 359 L head 8 in 1954 with 212 Hp in the senior models, less Hp and cubes in the others.

KTRON

Its actually pretty funny that you mention the immediate "Hornet" response when you say you own a Hudson. Has that been the case before the hit movie "Cars" came out? I actually got turned onto Hudsons about 6 years ago. I was looking for a vehicle powered by a 2 cycle Detroit Diesel, and stumbled across a 1950 Chevy Fleetline with a Perkins diesel in it. http://www.killbillet.com/showthread.php?21184-1950-2door-Chevy-Fleetline-Turbo-Diesel It caught my attention, but it wasnt what I was looking for at the time. Had it been powered by an air cooled Deutz Diesel, I probably would have bought it. I showed the car to my parents, and the oddest thing happened. My mom of all people, knowing nothing about cars, said that the boy across the street from her in Astoria, NY, had a big black Hudson just like it. She fondly remembers as a child getting nautious and throwing up all over the back seat from the high speed and cigar smells of the rolling 50's. I ended up buying a Detroit Diesel engine out of a Sheridan tank instead of a vehicle, spent a year rebuilding that, and then bought my DD powered 79' GMC 7000 motorhome. I spent the last 4 years working on it, and I truly love the truck, but at 11'-8" high and 4-11mpg, I am limited on where I can travel. I am about 6 months away from finishing my truck, and the hunt for a sleek Hudson will begin. The biggest problem I have is that I have no where to store a Hudson indoors. My garage is packed with nearly a hundred engines, milling machines and a farm tractor my brother and I restored. I can likely find a place to shelter a Hudson for the winter months, but will not have the luxury to keep one inside year-round until I find a place of my own. Until then, I have plenty of time to learn about Hudsons and figure out exactly what I want,

Chris

RonS

All good comments. I will add a couple more. Consider a 53. They look like a 52. most parts interchange except the hood ornament. 53 has the big "bomber" on the hood lid. The grille lacks the verticle bars.. IMO a cleaner look.  BUT, all the 53s had the Dana 44 rear axles with the very obtainable bearings. Dash was painted, not grained, and simpler to restore/repair. Twin H was available all year, if you care. Most Generator/regulators are 45 amps, instead of 40amps.

Park_W

Going back to the original Q about relative price:  The Hudson dealer in Fort Wayne wasn't far from the high school I attended, so I and a friend used to stroll down there over lunch hour.  I recall checking prices in '51, and the Hornet  was priced dollar for dollar with the C8.  Checked the C6 price a few minutes ago, and it was $80 less than C8 and Hornet.

EssexAdv

Also, at least for 52,  The C8 and the C6 were different in appearance. As mentioned earlier, the C6 was closer to a wasp trimmed full sized car while the C-8 is closer to a Hornet trimmed car. There are several differences between the c-8 and the Hornet in interior finish and both external and internal trim. 

Lew

Park_W

It's interesting that Hudson differentiated between 6-cyl and 8-cyl cars within the same series.  For example, in '36 the Custom 8 came with several items as standard equipment that the Custom 6 did not have.  Clock and cigar lighter, for example.  The eights also had larger brakes and a heavier anti-sway bar.  Even up through the forties they treated the eights different than the sixes, within the same series.

KTRON

I was wondering the same thing, with a heavier engine (assuming the inline 8 is heavier than the inline 6) would the car have different suspension, brakes, front crossmember, handling, etc? 

I need to actually see a few Hudsons before I figure out what year I want. Google is a bit misleading when you type in the year of the car your looking for. I love the look of the 4 doors, so in terms of looks a 51 hornet/commodore 8 is at the top of my list, 49 commodore 8 up next, then the 52 hornet, and then the 54 hornet. I do not like the look of the hood scoop on the 53, but I said the same thing about the 54, but its style has grown on me. Trim and styling is only one piece of the puzzle. Engine/transmission/axle/accessories (power steering/ac/can it be converted to 12v while looking stock, can disc brakes be added without ruining overall look) are all pretty important to me. I want it to be a daily driver I can enjoy, so staying away from a transmission/engine or rear end that is prone to failure would be nice! From the way it sounds, you cant go wrong with any Hudson, but somehow the worst in everything finds me, so the more research I do, the better off I'll be when the time comes to buy one. Id sure love a 49 commodore convertible, but I dont think I can afford one just yet! 

Does this site have a picture library/spreadsheet/factory bruchure(s) which shows all of the engine/transmission/rear axle combinations for any given year/model Hudson? A visual comparison of dashboards from year to year would be nice too! 

Chris

hudsontech

The online library (link below) has a 1950 sales catalog, a set of Service Merchandisers that may have info and several body parts books that show differences somewhat.

Hudsonly,
Alex Burr
Memphis, TN

KTRON

Thank you Thank you Thank you! 
I was looking for that information but could not find it. I have hours of reading ahead of me!

Chris

Geoff

There would be very little difference in weight between a Step-down 8 and 6 cyl, unlike the pre step-downs, where the six was much smaller. 

RL Chilton

"How does the 254 cubic inch I8 of the commodore compare to the 262/308 inline 6's?"

I drive an I8, 3 spd around town and it is very capable of non-interstate speeds (60) with the standard rear end ratio.

The bigger issue is if you want to drive it a lot the I8 uses babbit bearings meaning an engine overhaul is a lot more expensive to do well, not a big deal if you are driving 2,000 miles a year but if you drive daily then you are looking at both a lot of cost and losing your block to a machine shop (I looked around a lot and there are only a handful in the country I would trust re-babbiting your bearings) for many months during the overhaul.

Re-Read that post again, Chris.  This is really right on the money.  The bearings in an I8 were 20 years out of date in the early 50's.  It's a great engine, and my NEXT Hudson is going to be an 8.  But, it's not for any more than around town and financially speaking, it's not a good candidate for a regular driver.  

RL Chilton

Chris-

Sent you a PM.

KTRON

I completely understand where you are coming from with babbitt bearing engines. I have poured and hand scraped babbitt for rod and main bearings on a few of my hit and miss engines. Its not easy to do, and with a high speed engine, worn or homemade babbitt bearings is likely going to open a huge can of worms inside the engine! My statement above was in regards to my feeling on Hudsons only looking at the exterior. If the 308 is in fact the best factory engine for this car, I'll start researching how to identify it, and how to make it the best it can be. Ive seen loads of videos on youtube of Hudson owners basing the size of the engine off of whats on the interchangeable cylinder head. Surely there is some difference in the blocks to differentiate. I dont want to get that specific just yet, I have to peruse the library of information your website has to offer first,

Chris

Geoff

One of our club members shipped his 1934 Hudson 8 to the U.S.A. and drove it right across the continent, and then back again, in 2009.   This car still has it's ORIGINAL connecting rods and main bearings.   Of course he had no problems, and continues to motor the car to this day.   So much for unreliability of babbit bearings.  I have done half a million miles in my '28 Essex, and have TWO connecting bearing failures in that time ( 59 years).   Unless you have walked the walk you really cannot talk the talk! the present engine has been in the car for over 30 years, and one rod started knocking two years ago, so I replaced it.   With proper maintenance and keeping the oil clean, and driving within the  safety parameters there is no reason an 8 cylinder Hudson cannot last as long as a later 6. 

Geoff 

RL Chilton

Geoff, I looked back through the posts and I didn't find any comments about the unreliability of the babbit bearings, only comments about the cost factor and availability of qualified shops to do the work properly.  

Park_W

I think the eights are fine for long-distance driving if you keep the rpm's down.  Helps with the noise level, too.  Non-overdrive cars can be fitted with OD or a change-out of the rear axle to allow better gear ratios.  Factory OD cars can have the 4.55 rear end gears or differential assembly changed out to the non-OD ratio of 4.1, for a final ratio of 2.88.  I've driven my '47 C8 several thousand miles on round trips of five hundred miles or so. While I don't expect the bearings will last as long as modern types, they'll last a long time.

 

terraplane8

Also, what is the story on the difference in smoothness and refinement of the 308 compared to the 8? In my mind, the 308 is a very big six and may not be very refined as in smoothness and quietness - is this right or wrong?

The 8 in fact is a nice refined engine and loves both pulling at low revs and revving out too. I do like driving behind engines that keep on wanting to go faster almost by themselves.......what's the word, "willing" or as one descriptive Railton tester said running "as if a gale of wind were behind it".

RL Chilton

Also, what is the story on the difference in smoothness and refinement of the 308 compared to the 8? In my mind, the 308 is a very big six and may not be very refined as in smoothness and quietness - is this right or wrong?

The 8 in fact is a nice refined engine and loves both pulling at low revs and revving out too. I do like driving behind engines that keep on wanting to go faster almost by themselves.......what's the word, "willing" or as one descriptive Railton tester said running "as if a gale of wind were behind it".

I think both perform admirably.  "Admirably" isn't even the right word (too mediocre).  As far as smoothness, if a 6 is properly balanced, you can stand a nickel up on a running engine the same as you can an 8.  A 6 is never going to be quite as smooth as an 8, but the difference can be negligle. 

KTRON

Thanks everyone for their commentary so far. I will be looking at Charles Rivera's Hudsons today after work, and Charles Salvato's Hudsons tomorrow. I cant wait to see them!

Chris

RL Chilton

Chris-

Look forward to hearing of your impressions.  

Browniepetersen

I have an 8 and I have had several 6's.  I like the 262 but I personally think the 308 has the most potential for the type of driving and enjoyment I want.  My 8 is in a 36 Hudson and because driving this car is a bit more of an adventure, if I am going more than 100 miles it ends up in a trailer.  However, I tend to drive my 6's like it is a daily driver or my second car.  I built a 308 Twin-H for the Bonneville Salt Flats and drove it everywhere.  I was totally comfortable heading out on 1000 mile plus trips and never carried extra parts.  And, each time I had it up to highway speeds I would take a moment and push it up over 100 miles per hour.  We checked it out on the Salt Flats with a top speed of 130mph. I plan to drive my current 54 Coupe on a daily basis.  It is the 308 with out Twin H. (Twin H is a cost issue for me on this car) It is a car just for fun car that I enjoy driving.  Those are my thoughts on the two engines, but you will, in the end, have to decide for yourself. 

KTRON

How does your 308 Hudson handle at 70-100mph compared to modern cars? With its low center of gravity and aerodynamics, i'd think it would handle just fine. But how about steering at speed, without power steering, a little jolt of the wheel can send you off the road? Does it accelerate well from 60 on up? How are the stock brakes at speed? Id never have a need to go 100+mph, but I do like the sound of the larger displacement engine...

Chris

dwardo99

Well, I have regularly cruised my Hudsons at 75mph on long trips and they handle it just fine. Handling at highway speeds is not an issue. The brakes are fine provided they are in good condition and adjusted properly. Having said that, if I build a project Hudson it will definitely have disk brakes. A bigger sway bar would be nice but I have not had an opportunity to try that. My attitude has always been that I can't use a hobby car that can't keep up with traffic and still have something in reserve. That is one thing that in my mind makes Hudson a more desirable car than most of the others made in the 50s. Just my .02.