Converting Hornet Starter to 12 Volts/RPM's

hudsn47
hudsn47 Senior Contributor
in HUDSON

I know there's been considerable discussion on 12 Volt starter conversion. I currently have the 6 Volt starter running on 12 Volts. My concern is that the starter turns the engine over way too fast for my liking, has damaged the bendix. Would converting the starter to 12 Volts slow down the starter revolutions? My starter guy seems to think converting will not slow it down. Thanks.

Doug

 

Comments

  • hudsonguy
    hudsonguy Senior Contributor

    Doug,

    It WILL slow it down. It will sound more like a six volt starter on a six volt system. That 12V is definitely spinning it faster than stock, and can lead to damaging parts, as you've experienced.

    Doug

  • hudsonguy
    hudsonguy Senior Contributor

    Here's a great starter guy. Many HET'ers have had their 6V starters converted/rebuilt by;

    Ken Warner at Classic Generator, (817) 473-1448. He's located in Texas and does a fine job.

  • hudsn47
    hudsn47 Senior Contributor

    Thanks! I'll give Ken a call.

     

  • Glowplug
    Glowplug Expert Adviser
    Ditto on Ken Warner... He sold me the field coils needed to convert my starters. Great guy!
  • DocHornet
    DocHornet Expert Adviser

    I know there's been considerable discussion on 12 Volt starter conversion. I currently have the 6 Volt starter running on 12 Volts. My concern is that the starter turns the engine over way too fast for my liking, has damaged the bendix. Would converting the starter to 12 Volts slow down the starter revolutions? My starter guy seems to think converting will not slow it down. Thanks.

    Doug

     

    About a year ago I decided, as a preventive measure, to pull my 6V starter (with 12V system) and have it converted to 12V coils.  I had only put some 1,000-1,500 miles on the car with this starter.  Was I surprised to find the bendix gear chewed up virtually beyond use.  Fortunately, the local starter/alternator shop here in Austin was able to source a new bendix along with the 12V windings.  Yes, it does turn over noticeably slower, but with plenty of authority, and I can feel a bit more comfortable about the plight of my new Bendix.

    Oh, by the way, spoiler alert:  When I reinstalled the converted starter, at first the Bendix gear just wouldn't engage at all.  Then another helpful forum member pointed out that the two mounting lugs on the starter are NOT symmetrically spaced.  There is nothing to prevent that end cap from being assembled 180 degrees out from the correct position.  Sure enough, the guys at the shop clearly weren't aware of this, slapped it back together out of phase.  I pulled the cap off, turned it 180 degrees and re-assembled the starter.  It has been engaging perfectly ever since!

    Phil,
    '51 Hornet Club Coupe
    Austin
  • bob ward
    bob ward Senior Contributor
    I'll put in a plug for the modern 12V geared starter motors, they are much kinder to your 60 year old ring gear than a bendix drive. They only start to crank the engine AFTER the pinion is fully meshed into the ring gear.
  • hudsn47
    hudsn47 Senior Contributor

     Thanks everyone, and good to know Phil just in case. The starter is now with Ken Warner for a 12V conversion and new Bendix drive. I dont usually farm stuff out if I can help it with the exception of carburetor rebuilds. Have rarely had a starter problem in the old cars and prefer to keep the Hudsons 6 Volt but when I got the Hornet it was already a 12 Volt start but runs on 6  volts, unusual but with the starter converted think it will be good that way with the 308.

  • airbrushguy
    airbrushguy Member
    If you change to 12v negative ground, how do you wire the 12volt starter solenoid?
    Thanks
  • Glowplug
    Glowplug Expert Adviser
    Changing polarity causes no change to the wiring on the solenoid.
  • Kdancy
    Kdancy Senior Contributor
    Last September, I sent a Hudson starter for manual application to Snap Rebuilders to use as a pattern to make a modern gear reduction type starter for 232-262-308 manual trans application. Long story short, they sent one back for me to try, didn't work so I sent it back for them to tweak. Got it back and when turning the engine, it sounded like two cats and a monkey chasing 3 hamsters in a hamster wheel. Sent it back and having the stock one converted to 12v.
    Snap sells a gear reduction type for hydromatics on eBay.
  • RL Chilton
    RL Chilton Administrator, Member
    " . .  it sounded like two cats and a monkey chasing 3 hamsters in a hamster wheel."  

    Not sure what that sounds like, but I'm sure it doesn't sound good!
  • ESSX28-1
    ESSX28-1 Senior Contributor
    I bookmarked this some time ago, it may be of help in finding the correct 12v field coils
    Starter feild coils cross ref chart
    http://dixie-electric.com/catalog/9810-COM2-002.pdf   
    be prepared for a wait whilst the 5 meg pdf downloads!!

  • Glowplug
    Glowplug Expert Adviser
    Thanks for the catalog link ... Dropped it on my iPhone reading list and saved to the library easy-peasy
  • bob ward
    bob ward Senior Contributor
    Last September, I sent a Hudson starter for manual application to Snap Rebuilders to use as a pattern to make a modern gear reduction type starter for 232-262-308 manual trans application. Long story short, they sent one back for me to try, didn't work so I sent it back for them to tweak. Got it back and when turning the engine, it sounded like two cats and a monkey chasing 3 hamsters in a hamster wheel. Sent it back and having the stock one converted to 12v.
    Snap sells a gear reduction type for hydromatics on eBay.
    The 3 major considerations when retro fitting a geared starter to a Hudson or indeed any old vehicle are pinion to ring gear distance, pinion diameter and pinion tooth count. Get all that right and a geared starter works brilliantly, but it sounds like your supplier didn't get at least one of them right.

    My speculation is that on their first attempt they hadn't noticed the subtle offset on the starter mount, which means the pinion is too far away from the flywheel and won't mesh. Been there done that.

    Rather than rework the job and move the starter to its correct position they elected to fit a larger pinion which (unfortunately and not too surprisingly) didn't mesh properly with the Hudson ring gear. Hence the loud noises.
     
  • Uncle Josh
    Uncle Josh Senior Contributor
    Some Hudson guys around here are using 8V batteries available at the tractor stores.  They spin the starter over a little faster but don't blow your light bulbs.
  • Kdancy
    Kdancy Senior Contributor

    Ken, the starter company understands the Hudson starter action well and how it works by pulling the bendix back into the beveled ring gear teeth, they weren't ignorant of those facts but felt they could make a gear reduction gear work. they are close but not good enough at this time.

  • bob ward
    bob ward Senior Contributor
    Yarbutt.. The geared starter motor does not start cranking until the pinion is fully extended, ie fully engaged with the ring gear. No full engagement = no cranking = no funny noises.

    One flow-on from this full engagement system is that the pinion teeth can be bevelled rather than the ring gear. The modern geared starter is designed to engage with square ended ring gear teeth. The car makers like this, its just that little bit cheaper to bevel a few pinion teeth rather than a hundred or so ring gear teeth. 

    So the blunt end of a manual Hudson ring gear and a geared starter motor are actually a good match - so long as its done properly.

    This a post from 6 months ago
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