Advice Needed: starter won't turn over engine.

Jon B

Help!  I need mechanical advice!

I have a 1937 Terraplane.  Everything worked fine until this afternoon.

I pushed the starter and idiot lights dimmed but starter did not turn over engine.

I cleaned the cable clamp and replaced.  Still nothing.

Replaced cable with a #2 (Tractor Supply was out of #0 and #1).  Still nothing.

Got the hand crank out.  This always starts mein a pinch.  The crank would not even turn. Something is jammed up in the engine.  Yet the car is out of gear.  Never had this happen in 40 years.

One other strange thing:  Isn't the starter drive supposed to turn freely?  Mine is locked up tight.

Any ideas?

Kdancy

Is the starter bendix bound up in the ring gear? I'd pull the starter then see if the engine will turn using the hand crank.

Jon B

I can just pull the starter?  Suppose it is bound up?  Do I just remove the bolts and pull the starter out, or is there some trick, if the gears are jammed?

Kdancy

When you pull the bolts, it should allow the starter bendix to move out and off the ring gear so you can remove the whole unit.

Geoff

Put the car in high gear, and get out, rock the car back and forth, as you push back you will hear the starter go "clunk" and the pinion will unjam from the ring gear.  It works.

Geoff 

lostmind

Put the car in high gear, and get out, rock the car back and forth, as you push back you will hear the starter go "clunk" and the pinion will unjam from the ring gear.  It works.

Geoff 

I knew a guy that pulled  the engine because it wouldn't turn , when he got the engine and

trans out , he removed the starter to remove the trans . He heard the clunk when it released ,

and discovered the engine was free. Not happy.

No , it wasn't me.

RL Chilton

"No , it wasn't me."

HAHAHAHAHAH!!  

)

Jon B

Wish I could rock it back and forth but it's now sitting in my yard heading uphill.  I let it roll backwards then tried to pop the clutch in reverse, thinking that this might free something up.  It didn't.

Sadly, this means I will miss a car meet tomorrow morning, for which I pre-paid.  And a huge thunderstorm came through drenching the car after I washed it.  I could not move it into my car trailer to keep it dry.

Jon B

Thank you for your ideas, though.  Maybe just by releasing the bolts (and not removing the starter) I can get that satisfying "clunk".

Ol racer

FYI
I replied a fix on the other Forum too but after reading above that your on an incline this incline may be a reason it locked up in first place. Block the car real good then try removing the starter bolts. If sense tension try reversing the rotation of the motor slightly by holding pressure down on fan belt while pulling fan blade in reverse rotation to loosen starter, however,  you may have to slide underneath to insert a blade screwdriver in the ring gear tooth then back up the motor slightly by prying against the bell housing where ever possible.Dont just re install.. Ck starter Bendix, Bushings, shaft True, and ring gear.

Ol racer

FYI
I replied a fix on the other Forum too but after reading above that your on an incline this incline may be a reason it locked up in first place. Block the car real good then try removing the starter bolts. If sense tension try reversing the rotation of the motor slightly by holding pressure down on fan belt while pulling fan blade in reverse rotation to loosen starter, however,  you may have to slide underneath to insert a blade screwdriver in the ring gear tooth then back up the motor slightly by prying against the bell housing where ever possible.

Jon B

The saga continues....

I got the starter motor out of the engine.  The ring gear teeth look okay.  The starter drive teeth look okay.  The starter drive shaft appears true.  The drive slides easily up and down the shaft.

However, there seems to be a spring within the drive that partly pulls it back (as it revolves), away from the ring gear.  But the drive gear doesn't "unscrew" all the way back to its stop; you have to assist it.  Should it unscrew away from the ring gear, with force?  And continue right back until it can go no further?  If so, then what should I replace or adjust?

Note there IS a big humongous spring at the very end of the drive shaft, whose purpose I do not know.  It looks okay.  I DO have a replacement for it (Wickwire) but there seems no reason to replace it.

boothguy

With the starter out can you handcrank the engine?

Ol racer

Jon,
Like Frank asks ensure the motor will rotate now. If so the problem is in the starter and more likely in the bendix. I would take the starter to a local Shop to have it checked out completly and replace the Bendix.

Frankvintagefullflowcom

I'd agree that it isn't likely that the engine is seized for some reason since it was running to get it to where it is (I'm assuming), so it was sort of a stupid question, but..............stranger things have occurred. 

F

Jon B

UPDATE: 

Everything looked okay on the starter motor and drive so I cleaned it up and re-installed it.  (Yes, the motor would turn with the hand-crank, because the starter drive was no longer engaging the ring gear.)

I then hit the starter. Again, the idiot lights dimmed on the dashboard and nothing happened.  I discovered that, once again, the starter drive as jammed in the ring gear. 

So once again I removed the starter, freed up the Bendix drive, and put it back.  At THAT point I hand-crank started to car and put in in my garage (which currently is an old enclosed car trailer in my field).

So now I'm scratching my head.

I'll probably pull the starter out tonight and take it to a starter place on Monday for them to look at.  I'm beginning to think that something may be wrong with the motor itself: there is enough current to start to turn the motor, which engages the drive with the ring gear, then it -- I dunno...what? -- shorts out?  And the whole thing is jammed.

Another possibility:  even though the battery is only a year old, and the cell tester showed that all cells were charged (indeed, the needle went right off the charts in all three cases), could there be something wrong with the battery?  Could IT have some sort of internal "short"?  It lights the headlights okay but just doesn't have enough "oomph" to turn the starter.

Very, very strange.  Thank you for all your ideas!

charles4d

 Did you put the battery to the starter to see if its working ?

Jon B

Thanks for the thought, Ken.

My first reaction is that this starter has been in the car for years.  Nothing changed yesterday, between the time I drove it and (maybe 15 minutes later) the starter jammed.  When I removed the starter I found that the nuts were tight, so nothing had "loosened up".

As to whether this is the original stud, I know not.  Two threaded studs hold the starter to the bellhousing.  When I removed the nuts (in order to remove the starter) I tried to tap studs backwards, out of the bellhousing (they each have a nut on the back side of the bellhousing) but could not do it.  So the stud is in some way fastened to the bellhousing.  I'm not sure what the extra nut is on the back side of each.

Once again: there simply was no change in the status of the starter, in the 15-20 minutes between the time I previously starterd it, and the time I attempted to do so again, but it jammed.  And I have had absolutely no problem with the starter itself for years.

lostmind

I think you need to have the battery load tested. At the very least , remove the caps ,

crank the car with the solenoid button and look at the cells to see if they are " Gassing".

Might want to wear safety glasses. The battery can go bad from one start to the next.

Jon B

Car was in neutral when I tried to crank it.  The starter shaft would not turn by hand.  So I put two and two together.  I'm not sure whatever would be causing the engine not to turn, if it wasn't the bendix gear!

Some people suggested putting the car in high, and then rolling it back and forth, to unstick the gears.  Didn't work.

The "worn spot" on the ring gear is an interesting theory.  If so, I may have several "worn spots".  I did a quick visual inspection of the teeth, after removing the starter and they didn't LOOK broken or worn.  But I am an amateur so could have been wrong.

Glowplug

Either the starter is shorted ( dim lights when trying to start with key) or my primary idea.. The starter shaft is bent.
Take it to a competent starter shop for inspection/repair

Jon B

Thanks, we have an old-line auto electric company about 45 minutes away, that has fixed my Terraplane generator before, I'll probably take it to them tomorrow (hope they haven't gone out of business!).

Jon B

LATEST UPDATE:

The starter "has gone to a better place..."-- the auto electric shop.  First off, the guy told me that the drive assembly (the one that slides on the shaft) is bad.  But he's going to go over the entire starter and check it out.  Looks like I might have the answer to my mystery.  We'll see.

Got a load test on the battery and that checks out.