Need some further advice on getting a brake drum off my 112

PaulButler

I'm trying to get my final drum off ; it's a rear one. Problem I have (see previous posts) is that my wheel bolts aren't up to the job and what is happening is that as I tighten the puller the bolts themselves (even though they feel tight) just gradually pull out of the threads.

I know I'm going to have do something with this hub but my issue is; how the heck can I get it off to sort it out?

I have thought about trying to find some longer bolts with the same thread but they are a) hard to find and b) the ones I have found aren't cheap (around $7.50 each!)

So what could I try next?

Glowplug

Paul when I was in US service and deployed to England the Auto Breakers were frequently visited to find the bits needed to keep our banger autos fit for MOT or just roadworthy. Maybe a visit will produce some necessary hardware @ cheaper tariff?

Jon B

Wow, I've never heard of the wheel bolts pulling out!  Can you remove one bolt, and compare the thread length of the bolt to the thread length in the hub?  If the bolt's not going deep into the hub, no wonder it's pulling out.

Also: are you dead sure that the thread size of the bolts you're using, matches the original thread size of the drums?

Also: maybe some former owner messed up the threads.

Might be worth buying a bunch of wheel bolts from someone in the U.S. (they're a dime a dozen here, and I think they're still available new), and then having them shipped to you.

One trick I use, when removing rear drums with a puller, is to tighten the puller and then revolve the drum while tapping on the sides of it with a hammer, to set up vibration.  That, along with the stress of the puller, should eventually loosen it.

Whatever you do, do not use one of those pullers that has you hammering the end of the axle shaft!  That will break to spacer block in your rearend.

PaulButler

Thanks Jon ; I've got a "proper" puller which I bought off a buddy of mine who retired as a mechanic a while back at the young age of 75!

The bolts themselves aren't in good fettle to be honest and looking at them I have a feeling they have been "sourced" from somewhere just to hold the wheel on which they just do. The more I look at what was done to this car to put it on the road when I bought it nearly 10 years ago (10 years!) the more I despair at times.

I did try tapping the drum but perhaps I was too gentile; I'll have another go tomorrow.

I think when the drum does come off (and it will) I'll have to do some fixin' on it

Jon B

For heaven's sake keep the axle nut on, when you pull the drum.  When the drum finally DOES pop off, it's going to do so very quickly and violently.  And you want something to stop it rather than your stomach.

In your quest for parts, have you tried the Railton club?  If many Railtons rode around on Hudson chassis, then it's possible they rode around on Hudson brake drums as well.  And someone may have a pocket full of wheel bolts.  You might even try English vendors of antique American car parts, maybe someone has a chest full of "Dorman" hardware.  http://openforum.hetclub.org/discussion/167454/hudson-lug-bolts  Still being made.

Size appears to be 1/2" x 20 but you can check your shop manual.

We Yanks are drowning in wheel bolts over here!

PaulButler

The only problem with the Railton Club Jon is they want you to be a member before they sell you parts.

I don't have a problem with that per-se but my finances dictate what I do and joining a club (albeit a very good one) just to get hold of parts is not in my plans at the moment.

The size is indeed 1/2" x 20

Ken,

Thanks for that. Interestingly when I was looking at the drum earlier the taper & key did seem to be rusty. I've sprayed some releasing fluid into it to see if that helps.

Of course my problem would be where to get a drum & axle assembly from. I know there are a few 112's over here but it's finding the bits and , as I said, finances dictate what I can do. I've managed to dig out some cash from a tax refund this year (not a given over here by any stretch of the imagination) to help me sort the brakes out with new wheel & master cylinders but , as always with these old things, the deeper you dig the more you uncover!

I'm almost at the stage of having to say I need to stop again now which is a pain because in my head I was going to be driving it around in a month's time ...

PaulButler

Oldfarmer1947gmailcom said:

Paul when I was in US service and deployed to England the Auto Breakers were frequently visited to find the bits needed to keep our banger autos fit for MOT or just roadworthy. Maybe a visit will produce some necessary hardware @ cheaper tariff?

Those places are few and far between these days over here unfortunately. I'm sure the stuff is out there but it's getting hold of it that's the problem.

You may not be aware but pre-1960 cars over here no longer need to go through an MOT test either which is a mixed blessing really!

barrysweet52

Most UNC and Whitworth bolts have the same threads/inch except 1/2", so make sure you use UNC. The other difference is the thread angle -  55 & 60 degrees. Hope you have some good luck. Barry

Uncle Josh

My 2 cents worth.  I can't imagine unique drums for the 112 since it was primarily a short (112 inch) wheelbase and short stroke engine car, so would any 39 10 inch hub fit?  That would expand the availability greatly..

If the drums are trashed anyway and you just need to get them off, what about drilling and tapping to the next bigger size and getting 3 standard bolts just to pull them.  Maybe grade 8 so they won't strip.

Jon B

Larger drums (if more readily available than the original size) would provide greater stopping power.  I put a pair on the front wheels of my '37, so it should work on your '39.  However, they may be as hard to find, for you, as the original type.

PaulButler

barrysweet52 said:

Most UNC and Whitworth bolts have the same threads/inch except 1/2", so make sure you use UNC. The other difference is the thread angle -  55 & 60 degrees. Hope you have some good luck. Barry

Thanks Barry; luck of any sort would help at the moment I'm sure I'll work something out

PaulButler

Jon B said:

Larger drums (if more readily available than the original size) would provide greater stopping power.  I put a pair on the front wheels of my '37, so it should work on your '39.  However, they may be as hard to find, for you, as the original type.

Yes Jon ; it's not going to be easy. If I find some chances are they'll be over the other side of the pond and my buddy has stopped visiting the UK now so I couldn't even persuade him to put some in his luggage!

However I'll keep the idea of larger drums in mind just in case I stumble across anything at all

bob ward

Paul, could your wheel bolts be pulling out because you don't have enough thread engagement when using them with the puller? Depending on he design of the puller foot this is a possibility.

You can check this by setting up the puller on a front drum and checking that the wheel bolts do come right through to the inside of the hub.

If you do have full thread engagement and the problem really is crappy wheel bolts these may do the trick.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/6-x-Front-Wheel-Bolt-Stud-1-2-UNF-Massey-Ferguson-35-65-135-165-275-290-Tractor-/221454887270?hash=item338fbd6966:g:kAQAAOSwT6pVg95T

If you don't have full engagement then you need, from a proper bolt shop not the local hardware, some longer standard hex head grade 5 or grade 8 bolts. Or maybe these guys.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/UNF-Bolt-1-2-3-4-3-8-5-8-5-16-7-16-1-Hexagon-Head-Bolt-Grade-S-8-8-/300802231592?var=&hash=item460935cd28:m:m3Y_aNOyBRTtBfMHgperZxw

Either way, prior to a next attempt, I would be applying a torch to the hub - not too severely - in the hope of cracking the stiction in the taper.

Frankvintagefullflowcom

Of course, I can't speak to the availability of Heli-coil or other such thread repair products where you are, but I have done a couple of these on our Hornet recently.

When you get the hub removed (and you eventually will) The attached photos are of the latest repair job.

796) Using a transfer punch to position the drill chuck over the center of the faulty hole.

797, 98, 99,) Tap drilling for Helicoil tap, tapping and installing the Helicoil with high strength Loctite.

800) Trim off excess on the inside.

I would highly recommend NOT attempting the tap drilling operation freehand. That risks a broken wrist, or worse yet, a broken drill.

PaulButler

Thanks Bob,

I had been searching for something like those but they'd escaped me! I think you're right about not having enough engagement with the puller; it's a hefty old beast.

Thanks Frank,

I'll take that on-board as well.

I'm sure it will come off. One of my problems is that my toolkit is very limited so I don't possess such things as a torch unfortunately. I'd love to expand what I have but it's a choice between buying bits for the car or bits to help me with the car

Jon B

I'm thinking out loud here:

Isn't the brake drum riveted to the hub:

In a pinch, could you grind off the rivets from the outside, remove the drum, and then you would have access to the rear of the hub, so you could actually insert new bolts (of somewhat smaller diameter) through the lug bolt holes from behind, so you will have something solid to attach your puller to?

(I haven't looked in my shop manual to see how the drum / hub is constructed, so maybe this won't work.)

Of course, this would ruin the drum -- unless you can have someone rivet the drum and hub back together again.  But at least you could remove them from the car.

Jon B

Wo!  So you did, Ken -- missed that, sorry!