Railton and oil capacity
Comments
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Nice looking car, Phil! My impression was that the eight cylinder engines were built for a long time ('30 through '52, right?) so one would assume the sump capacity (and the dipsticks) were unchanged during that time. Hard to think you have the wrong dipstick unless by some chance you have a Ford, Pontiac or other eight cylinder one by mistake.
My oil (1937 T 6cyl) is black fairly soon, of course there's no filter.
Isn't there some sort of deflector at the back to the engine, to usher the oil away from coming out the rear? And then of course there is a rope seal, isn't there?
Anyway, these are all wild guesses. One of our "eight" experts will jump in here in a moment, and set things to rights!
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I've moved this into the "Hudson" category Phil. It was sitting in the "Flathead Forum" which some members may not see0
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Hmmmm. Sounds to me that the return hole in the pan gasket is blocked, a fairly common mistake at assembly time but I don't know if your engine has been worked on recently.
The splasher eights and sixes didn't have a rear main seal in the usual sense, but simply had a slinger on the crank to "throw" oil into an annular cavity around it, after which it gravity drained back into the sump. If the drain is blocked, the cavity quickly fills and runs out the gap between crank and block/main cap. Even if you have the correct level of oil in the reservoir, accumulation in that area will cause an apparent overflow.
F
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An oil temp approaching 250F isn't really extreme and, if measured after driving, is to be expected. Discoloration, especially in the first few hundred miles during the "break-in" period, my be more rapid due to somewhat greater blow-by then. Lack of filtration is probably less significant than the lack of adequate crankcase ventilation on those pre-"stepdown" eights when it comes to blackening of the oil but, not knowing the history of the engine, it's hard to say. Even the late eights (and sixes) were pretty poor in the ventilation department. "Road pipes" let gasses out but, without an entrance point, there's no flow through the crankcase to scour them out, save for that little notch in the timing gear cover that directs a small flow of dusty air right onto the cam gear. What were they thinking?
F
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Oh, and.......
At 4.5 psi, the check valve is within the 4-12 range as specified in the manual but may be allowing "leak-off" in between pulses, causing the plunger to settle back down onto the contact pin. This isn't usually such a bad sign since that pressure is generated by the check valve itself and not any indication of engine condition. An intermittent, or even regular flashing of the light at hot idle is quite common and is dependent on a few factors, not the least of which is the viscosity of the oil at that temp. It may flash at hot idle but not before the oil gets hot. More info needed there. The flashing should be about 50 FPM at a 600 rpm idle.
It becomes a matter of time.....the time it takes for the plunger to return to the contact pin versus the inflow rate from the pump. At low rates, the plunger-drop speed beats the in-rush of oil from the next pulse, allowing contact with the pin to occur. Flash!
I'm curious.......A pressure gauge in those engines is usually swinging too wildly to be of much meaning. Does yours behave that way?
F
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Thanks for input to date.Taking various comments and questions in no particular order....The engine has only done 350 miles since complete and full rebuild.The oil pressure gauge does swing by half a psi when hot but certainly gives an indication of pressure, the gauge being zero to 20 psi in its range.If the oil reaches these temps it is generally destroyed according to advice i have rec'd from race engine people unless i use fully synthetic.The loss of oil pressure occurred at around 50 mph and the light had been on fairly often at that speed despite the gauge reading 4-5 psi continually. It was dark and i was not staring at the gauge when the sudden "clatter" alerted me to something wrong. Stopped the car within 3 seconds and was towed to base. upon startup the following day there was full oil pressure but when warm - a tapping from side of engine.I suppose I am assuming that I lost oil pressure ( due to the warning light ) but maybe it was a mechanical gremlin causing the noise the previous night. I still have trouble with the oil light being on with the gauge reading correctly.Whilst awaiting for ( hopefully ) more comments, I will pull the sump and check for blockage and flap etc etc.Thanks for all to datePhil0
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Frank has pretty well summed things up. Check that you have the ball in the bottom of the Pressure switch. If this is missing the pressure will tend to fluctuate a bit Hudson pretty well ignored conventional theories about oil temperatures, piston speed etc. Information overload syndrome!Geoff0
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Thanks GeoffHudson may well have ignored oil temp but Penrite tell me that oil should not exceed 120 C, 130 C absolute max.ThanksPhil0
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Unless it was hidden between the lines, I missed the part in your original post where there was noise associated with the problem.
The Hudson Eight has no oil pressure in the common sense of the term, only that which is generated by frictional losses in the discharge piping. This is so in both discharge circuits but the rearward half of the system is also influenced by the pressure developed by the resistance through that check valve. Once oil passes through that device, it is simply "dumped" into the rear portion of the dipper tray. The only thing pressurized is the tubing between the pump and the check valve in the rear circuit.
My point:
First, let me say that I sincerely hope I am wrong but........If you are experiencing a knocking sound, it probably isn't due to loss of oil pressure but, instead (here's the part you don't want to hear and I don't even want to say), may be a failure of one or more rod bearings. This is sadly a common story........one that I have myself told, after a near identical set of circumstances with a "freshly rebuilt" Hudson 8. Within a few moments, two rods expelled their Babbitt material, and I mean all of it, leaving the steel rod running on the crank with no bearing. Others were close behind. It was subsequently determined that the re-Babbitting job had failed to adhere to the steel rod, indicating a procedural error on the part of the shop that did it.
You will know when you drop the reservoir. If there is Babbitt material in the dipper trays, ........well, I don't even want to say it....
F
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Again, Frank has said it all. The Hudson sump is so designed that the oil is cooled each time it circulates. Having said that, it is imperative that the mesh screens are both intact, and completely unclogged. Also there must be a complete seal around the sump where the oil intake pipe fits. You are going to have to remove the sump to fix the rear leak anyway.Geoff0
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GuysThe engine ( and entire car ) is going back to the engine rebuilder tomorrow.No white metal in sump.2 x cam lobes appear to be discoloured - consistent with the type of noise i hear - worn away metal and greater gap to follower with a slap to the follower by the affected cam lobeAfter tomorrow, all will hopefully be revealed - stay tunedPhil0
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PS, Frank no need to be shy about telling it like you see itWe all need to hear what we need to hear NOT what we wish to hear.Thanks to AllPhilPPS Frank, My second post contained info re the "noise"0
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Phil, another imperative is for all cam followers to be dressed to correct profile, and in proper alignment. I would be very surprised if the knock is in this area as it is literally flooded with oil. Good luckGeoff0
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It's so difficult to analyze from afar.......very afar. Not wanting to point fingers is a challenge. As Geoff mentions, the alignment of cam followers is critical and is controlled by proper installation/alignment of the lifter guides to achieve "squareness" between cam lobe and follower. Also, followers (lifters, tappets) must be faced correctly to achieve full contact with the lobes. I had a set refaced once by a reputable cam grinding shop that left me with faces that were as much as .009" out of parallel with the cam lobes!!! Holy line-contact, Batman! They would have eaten each other up in short order.
If the cam was re-ground, then the lifters must also be refaced or replaced with new ones. Look for clues up there. I'm glad to hear that it isn't a bearing failure, but if it's some other component failure, the debris from that will be distributed throughout the engine and not subsequently removed by filtration. The Splashers are a sensitive breed.
Keep us posted.
Frank
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I had a similar problem with my stepdown 8. Someone used RTV to seal the sump to the block. Some of that RTV got lodged in the pickup tube when the sump was attached to the block. It was there for years and not a problem, because the car was only used in town and parades. When I bought it ..the first time I got it up to 55-60 MPH there was oil starvation that took a rod bearing out. Oil "pressure" light didn't give much warning. There just wasn't enough oil flow, although it had enough pressure to trip the switch. many $$$$$$ later I now have a great engine. Machine work and parts were more than $4,000,US. I did all the disassembly and build up. Machine shop was about 150 miles away costing much more in time and gasoline.
On the subject of oil temp: don't get Celsius mixed with Fahrenheit.
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" .....Oil temp is also running at 120 C, with water at 190F".
I'm not sure why Phil used mixed units but that's why we specified "C" or "F". To me, it doesn't matter as long as the units are given.
Just to beat it to death, the oil temp may appear unusually high if the car has been driven and brought up to temp (in all respects) and allowed to stand while running before the temp reading was taken. Temp will rise due to the absence of air flow past the reservoir that, of course, lowers temp while the car is under way. I can't say how significant that effect is, but I'm sure it's a measureable influence.
F
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G'day All,Well..... The engine builder has removed sump and headThe engine is far too tight due to oil ring drag.they purchase piston and ring sets then throw away the oil rings and install other oil rings which give better results. those purchased oil rings they presume have been supplied oversize, ie say,. 60 thou over for the standard bore we are using. the drag from the poil rings only was significant. the result was high temps which caused No 1 piston to close up and knock.The readings were taken as soon as the 25km drive was completed, not left to stand or idle etc.We are seeking another piston and correct sized oil rings after which it should be right.PS, my use of F and C temps is due to the gauge / instrument used to measure same.So, that is the issue with this engine.I'll let everyone know when it is all back together and running correctly.thanks to allPhil0
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Phil, you must ensure that the oil rings are not chrome. Seems a little negligent that a rebuilder would fit oversize rings. Proceed with caution!Geoff0
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G,
Glad you said that. It saved me the dilemma of whether or not to say it myself. It somewhat discredits the engine builder to have made such a mistake, and that's an attempt at diplomacy.
F
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The oil rings are a segmented type with an expander which he tells me cannot be measured when fittingWe hope we don't have the same issue twice !!!phil0
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There must be a way of checking ring fit before the ring is installed in the engine. That's a serious leap of faith to rely on the size printed on the box for something so critical.0
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There is....It's really no different than gapping cast rings. I check every ring individually including the steel oil ring scrapers. It's a bit tedious but these engines are expensive and time consuming to overhaul so taking chances isn't in the plan. I've found a few....not many, that would have become a serious problem if I hadn't caught it.
Back in the good ol' days (when I was a kid with no $) , I was generally doing ring jobs on "experienced" engines, so end gap was never an issue......there was plenty of it. Starting off with a correctly sized cylinder makes it a different exercise.
Frank
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I would seriously question the fitting of segmented rings in a newly rebuilt engine. Plain cast iron rings are adequate.Geoff0
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