1928 Hudson engine block

strangeplant

OK, all three expansion plugs must be replaced. The front two are out, and there is an inner boss, which indicates to me that the correct plug is the disk type that is hammered in the center to expand it to fit. But at Hershey, someone told me to use the cup type, but I don't think so, but anyway I bought three @ $0.88/each from an auto parts store so it won't be a big loss. But the issue is the third hole, which has a plug in it of some type, with a hole in the middle and a dangling temperature gauge that hints it belongs there. Does it? And if so, what do I do now? Any usual expansion plug is way to thin to have something thread into it. And I see hacksaw marks on the block, as if something was cut off long ago. But what was it? Pictures of third hole below. Picture of middle hole next.

And, while you are looking at the exciting picture of a hole, please tell me what is supposed to be attached to the two studs in the block over the oil level float. Of course I have no float, unless it sank into the muck in the oil pan, but that's a question for later.

Geoff

There is a threaded fitting to take the capillary bulb for the temperature gauge.   The horn mounting bracket is attached to the two studs.  

strangeplant

The remaining insert hole is not quite round. The cast iron is rock hard and two files tell me that the metal is not going anywhere. Looks like a very large screw extractor was tried with no success in budging the threads. Hole is approx .750 but not quite round, and too big to attempt to thread as 1/2 NPT. I think that a diamond burr in a hand grinder might be able to smooth it out to get a rubber plug in it plus seal with Permatex #2, and that might be the only thing I can do. If I try to tap this really tough cast iron, I might make it worse.

Any other suggestions?

Geoff

It looks to me like the fitting that is screwed into the  block has been broken or sawed off, and the  hub of this remains, and this is steel, that's why you find it so hard.  You will not be able to  use 1/2" NPT tap, as this is far too coarse.  I'll try and find a fitting here and measure it.

lostmind

Geoff C., N.Z. said:

It looks to me like the fitting that is screwed into the  block has been broken or sawed off, and the  hub of this remains, and this is steel, that's why you find it so hard.  You will not be able to  use 1/2" NPT tap, as this is far too coarse.  I'll try and find a fitting here and measure it.

I agree . You can split it by making two or three cuts with a hacksaw blade and remove the remains of the bushing. Than you will have a sample of the thread size you need. I suspect it's a standard size bushing

strangeplant

While contemplating the wisdom of taking a hacksaw to the engine block, I'd like to ask about the starter relay, located under the end of the starter and connecting to the starter by a copper strap. Feels like there is a flare tube fitting, but doesn't look to be brass, on the middle of the relay body. Was this a compression fitting for an electrical cable? Control wire, I suppose? I'd like to know about it before I take it apart. And if is is supposed to be an electrical cable, how is it routed to the instrument panel (I'm guessing here) for the starter button?...or does it go to a floor mounted starter switch?

The 1927 manual says this, but doesn't make sense with what I can see:

    STARTER: - Model MUA4001 (R.H. Drive), Model MUA4002 (L.H. Drive).

Starter is connected to the engine through a sliding gear shift built in the starting switch.. Pressing down on the starting pedal meshes the gears and closes the starting switch. When the pedal is released a spring reverses these operations. Starter brush tension should be 1¾-2¼ pounds each. Starter cranks the engine at 110 R.P.M. taking 250 amperes at 5.5 volts.

Geoff

The manual says it all. There is no "relay" to the dash.   There is a switch assembly actuated by the shaft which  supplies power to the starter. Perhaps your car has bee bodgied up with a solenoid of some sort?

strangeplant

Its more likely that I'm assuming the starter has a Bendix throw-out gear and return spring, which I now understand is not the case. So, from what I'm reading and you are saying, there must be a floor pedal that through linkage pushes the starter gear on the starter shaft out to mesh with the flywheel, and then close a switch. And when the pedal is released, the switch opens, the starter motor stops and the gear is retracted by a spring on the starter shaft. Fine, I can understand all of that, and I guess I better take a look under the car. I don't fit there easily, and my glasses are at the the wrong focal length, but I have to find a way. Maybe mirrors. But I think there is something funny about the starter switch on my car and I'll have to take more and better pictures. There is a lot for me to learn about this car. Are there any references online about the starter/switch mechanics?

Geoff

The starter switch contacts are under the starter motor, slightly ahead, and the assembly screws to the  mounting plate. there are two curved contacts either side of an insulated sleeve, and on the end  of the shaft is a brass collar which completes the circuit.

strangeplant

Anything I should know before I take out the starter. The yoke is not sliding, and I think the pinion is rusted to the starter shaft.

50ClubCoupe

Could you try welding a stud into the hole and then backing it out? Or maybe use a small piece of square stock and fill the voids with weld ?

strangeplant

What I did to fix the hole was to grind a little to make it round using a diamond wheel 7/16 diam, then tapped 1/2 NPT with a really beautiful tap make in Korea. Was black oxided, then ground and TiN coated. Threaded to max diameter, and a 1/2 x 3/8 NPT adapter makes the bulb fit. Close to perfect. Sealer with Permatex #2. Still leaves me the option of doing something else later if I run into problems.

strangeplant

Finally got two hydraulic jacks to lift the car at both sides of the front axel so I could get under the car and see the starter arrangement for myself, and have room to work on it, which I will do after the Kroil has a chance to soak in. Surprised to see a sprag over running clutch (one way clutch) joined to a smaller gear on this shaft. Pinion is supposed to drive flywheel, and clutch pinion (hard to see, its underneath (actually above) the sprag pinion) drives OD of sprag. Shaft won't budge at all. I cannot see where shaft is supposed to engage starter switch from any angle. Everything is quite rusty. Their might be grease fittings on this shaft, but I can't see them. Pics attached.

strangeplant

Found the engine number. Was right in front of me, just hidden by dirt. Its 544120. Now, does anyone know anyone that can translate this into a VIN number and whatever else I need for the car's ID plate, and where I can get a replacement tag, plate or what ever they are called? Someone took it off the car probably when it was taken apart years ago, when all the wiring was removed and everything on the firewall, too.

strangeplant

So, today, I took off the water return to the radiator. Bolts were loose, but frozen in place with no gasket. Spent 3 hours fishing little pieces of cotton batting from the interior seats that the mice had moved inside the cooling passages of the engine block. I got out a little more than 2/3 a plastic shopping bag of cotton padding debris in two colors, including three complete walnuts, and a bunch of shell parts. But this is out of the two water return holes, so I couldn't possibly have gotten everything. Does anyone have a way to clean this out without leaving a blockage in the block? I suppose that mice could be trained to do this, but I don't think I could trust them..... And, BTW, the water pipe is full of tiny holes from interior corrosion of the thin iron. I need a new one. Anyone makes these?

Geoff

I can supply a new water pipe, and a new I.D. tag for the firewall. I iwll need your chassis number.

strangeplant

That would be a great help. What material? Do you need the flanges? The water pipe has two inlets. Where do I find the chassis number? I haven't seen it yet...should it be on the driver's door frame?

Geoff

I make them out of exhaust  tubing.  I figure the originals lasted nearly 90 years, so the replacement I will guarantee for 50, and then you can ask for your money back!   Seriously, if you use inhibitor in  the water then they will last forever.It would be helpful if you could send the original flanges, but I can get new ones. The chassis number should be stamped on the right rear spring hanger.  Contact me at NZgeoffclark@xtra.co.nz    Leave the NZ off the address, that is just to  outwit the autospammers.
Geoff 

strangeplant

Corrosion? What? I suppose that I'll find out about it when I put coolant in the radiator. If you are going to tig weld to the flange, tell me the ID you want and I'll bore them to slip fit to your tubing. And, BTW, I saw that there is a filter screen available from Restoration Supply Company (Gano coolant filter) that I might put in the return hose to trap the remaining cotton batting from the engine block, and any remaining walnuts.

strangeplant

Finally, I'm back on the car again. From above, the engine number is 544120. I found the chassis number, and looks to be 5417, located on the right read shackle suspension curved part. How do I gen a VIN number out of this, and more importantly, I think that i need a tag to get it on the road.

Did Goeff say somewhere that he knows someone that will make the tag?

Geoff

The number 5417 indicates early 1927 Model S. I can get the ID tag made for you. There has been a 2 year hiatus here. Do you still want the water pipe?