Induction systems
Just out of curiosity, since I am about to become a Hudson owner, what was ever offered for induction systems? Having a fair amount of experience with the Flathead V8 Ford, there were and still are endless combinations for it. Even though the Hornet had quite a racing history, I haven't seen much for it. There is the standard 2bbl, the Twin H which is only two 1bbl and Clifford still makes a 4bbl setup. Seems to me being a large displacement inline engine, either 2 2bbls or 3 2bbls would be the hot setup. Anybody have any experience on this subject?
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Edmunds two 2bbl aluminum manifolds are fairly common and come up frequently on ebay. I understand there are three 2bbl also, but I haven't run across any. Alot of them go in the $200-300 range. May want to try "Uncommon Engineering" website for some neat items0
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Although Clifford Performance has had mixed reviews on this site I did get a 3x2 sidedraft manifold from them just recently and they have one left in stock. They are $295 plus shipping.0
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I would look into some of the things Uncommon Engineering is doing.0
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Sidedraft? Are you going to run Webers? Anyone run the 4 bbl. That would be easiest, but with that long inline motor, seems a multicarb would make a big difference in the distribution. Did Clifford ever make a 2 2bbl. Could probably make that look like a Twin H setup with a little effort with more umph!0
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Yes the Clifford 3x2 is for Webers. No Clifford never made a 2x2 to my knowledge. The only 2x2 is the Edmunds as previously noted, for 2 Carter WDOs or WDGs. They are available if you look hard enough.0
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yorgatron wrote:
Wow !! Everyone should check these out !0 -
That 4 carb manifold on uncommonengineering looks awesome.0
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I think the 2bbl 2 carb setup would be the best all around setup. I am surprised that one is still not made. I wonder if you can machine out a Twin H manifold to a 2bbl will fit it.0
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The edmunds 2 X 2 are still common and at least a half dozen show up on ebay each year. Most sell for a fair price ($200-300). There was a real thick one last month that went for around $500. I've seen some old conversions that used the equilizer tube to adapt a third WA1 similar to the uncommon engineering setups. Probably could machine a twin H and install a mounting plate for 2 2bbl or use the 1 X 2 aluminum adaptors that were made by (Edelbrock?)0
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Go to: http://www.vintagespeed.com/ and scroll down to their various carb adapters. You probably can get them to custom drill about any combination you want. You could use the Edmunds manifold and run 4 2bbl carbs!0
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Seems like the two two bbl setup would be the best all around. I wonder if a twin-H manifold could be machined to fit two two bbls?0
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Vintage speed looks pretty interesting, but nothing really for Hudson. I am thinking either finding a Edmunds twin 2bbl or modifying a Twin H for twin 2bbls. Probably should quit getting ahead of myself and get the car first. It may just be fine the way it is.0
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You will find that the Twin H setup with single barrel WA-1's has no trouble feeding the engine with fuel. The thing to work on is getting more air into the mixture. I have wondered about swapping out the WA-1's for Webers as I believe the Webers have better air metering. When I looked at it in detail came out to a difference of a couple of mph and I am not racing mine so I thought what the heck and left it.0
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Years ago Clifford Research and others made simple aluminum cast adapters which up fit the single carburator bases of the Twin H manifold to a two barrel carburator base. I recently purchased two of these adapters for $7.00 on eBay... they were not advertised as Hudson... simply Clifford Research. I have old ALMQUIST, JC Whitney, Honest Charlie catalogs that list single bbl to 2 bbl adapters, single to twin single bbl adapters and adapters that allow the use of larger CFM carbs on the existing manifolds. All were basicly the same... cast part that adapted the intake size to a larger base carburator. Again these parts are available ... eBay being a quick source.
Good Luck.0 -
I'm working on a couple of intake systems for my race car. (in my spare time) One of them is the large plenum Edmunds Custon manifold with two 500cfm Holley 2bbls. I think it will help me get a lot closer to the 100mph mark in the 1/4 mile.
Dany0 -
Hmm??? Two twin throat carbs. Okay for an 8 perhaps, but I can't see much advantage for a 6. What sort of distribution would you have? 1-1/2 cylinders for each throat?
Geoff.0 -
I often wondered how a Hudson would react if one was to use the progressive Weber 2BBL carbs on a Edmunds intake. I think that it would be tricky to set up but would work great because of the progression. I think that it would be a pricey experiment.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Weber-2-bbl-carb-Jeep-258-CJ_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ33550QQitemZ8040608609QQrdZ10 -
When I prepared Bobby Johnson's 53 coupe motor for the mexican road race a few years ago he wanted to use the twin-H setup and I ended up boring out the venturi on each one and replacing with a 40 mm venturi. Worked great for additional airflow.
Randy0 -
Edmunds also made a very small number of "triple single" manifolds. I had one back in the fifties, and Glen Johnson in UT now has that very same manifold. I bought three 1 bbl.-to-Stromberg 97 adapters from J.C. Whiney, three of their chrome plated Stromberg 97 carbs, and small "bonnet" style air cleaners. Photo shows this rig and an Edmunds finned head on the Hornet mill in my '47 S6 brougham, ca. 1955.0
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To answer one of the questions here in my opinion, is considering what additional carburation does for a Flathead V8 Ford which is a smaller engine than the Hudson, additional carburation should benefit the Hudson 6 also. 308 cid is a pretty large motor to be feeding with a small 2bbl or twin 1bbl's. Especially if the motor has had any modifications to it. I am sure the Clifford 4bbl would be the easiest and quickest way to go. I went this way on my Dad's modified Flathead Ford I built, because he didn't want the complication of multiple carbs. Considering the inline 6 though, it is a long stretch from a single center carb to the outermost cylinders. That is where my theory of twin 2bbls would probably work the best, but then I am just applying basic mechanical physics, and have yet to work with the Hudson motor.0
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I'm in the process of planning the build of my first hotrod 308 to put into a recently purchased Pacemaker. I'm planning to replace the stock twin H with an Edmunds twin two barrel manifold I've aquired running two weber 32/36 progressive carbs. Pushing my pencil around a little, I figure the 308 will move about 356cfm@5000rpm, this being 85% efficency, it'd be 445cfm at 100%. The 32/36 is supposed to flow 255cfm, so two of them would be 510cfm, pretty close to the Clifford recomended 500cfm four barrel for his manifold. I selected the arbitrary rpm based on what my uncle had passed on to me from his Hudson drag racing experience. He had mentioned to me that after the 5000rpm point not much more power was to be had and that it was pretty easy to overcarburate the 308. We were talking your basic 7X mods with Hudson parts, so your experience may vary.
It should be fun once I get this pile of parts and pieces I've been collecting assembled into something.
mike0 -
I would assume after 5000 rpm the flat head design would not allow enough flow to make any more power. So where did you get your manifold? I guess I need to start looking.0
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308 is a torquer engine and unless you have changed the stroke at 5000 rpm if you stay there too long your crankshaft will fail at the #6 rod journal.0
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Makes sense for a large displacement inline engine no being a high revver. The flathead design doesn't help either.0
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464Saloon wrote:I would assume after 5000 rpm the flat head design would not allow enough flow to make any more power. So where did you get your manifold? I guess I need to start looking.
I think you'd be surprised how much you can flow thru a flathead.
RPM is limited more by the stroke and weight of the rotating assembly.
We regularly spin 3.5"X 3" flatheads to over 8500rpm and live. Have had
ours to 10,200 (but not on purpose). Yes, the state of the art Briggs & Stratton
5 hp engines are making 50 hp on methanol...
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I guess it depends on the design of the motor. My experience has been with the Ford V8. I am certainly not a guru with them but I have built a couple and done tons or reading and research on them. They certainly(according to the experts) don't flow air like an overhead. Possibly the Hudson is better, but it is still a flathead. Out of curiosity, I will soon have my 54 Hornet which according to my readings and research, Hudson made improvements in 54 to the head to increase power. Mine somewhere along the line had a 262 head put on it. I am sure that increased the compression, but by how much and will I actually lose power because the design of the chamber doesn't flow as well as the latest 308 head.0
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In 54 Hudson introduced the Super induction engine design. What they actually did was machine the relief into the block this unshrouds the valves. This more than the head made the engine produce more HP. I have a 51 308 head and 54 308 head and they look very close. Hudson has a nice writeup about this in their pamphlet Power Package for 1954. It shows what they call the "cut-away slot".0
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I've had some experiance with the Holley Weber 5200's. The verdict is, I like them. Especially if you intend to run on the street. We've used them on chevy 292's with huge success and I had an outfit mocked up on a Twin-H manifold. They will work on Hornets and Super Sixes, on Wasp's and Pacemakers - it gets tight at the firewall. Dwardo99 swapped me out of this outfit. It was setup for the Pacemaker single WA-1 pull type linkage.
Pictures are on the MSN HET site. I tried to post them to here but MSN won't let me. For the record - that really sucks.
Link to the pictures.
http://groups.msn.com/HudsonEssexTerraplaneBulletinBoard/hudsonshudson.msnw?action=ShowPhoto&PhotoID=2977
There are 4 pictures showing various perspectives of the manifold, carbs, spacers, and linkage.
The carburetors, linkage, adapters, and linkage kits are available from Tom Langdon.
www.stoveboltengineco.com
The cfm rating of these carbs is in the 220-230 range. Plenty for a 308 unless you increase the cubic inches by stroking.
There wasn't a better dual carburetor manifold made than the Twin-H, but it does need to be set up for dual two barrels. I wish somebody would remake the Twin-H in aluminum and with a pattern for dual 2's. That would fit most folks bill from the mild to the wild. With Holley carbs capable of 500 cfm each, that's up to anybody's standard. Personally I'd like to run two IDA Webers and have it hooked up to a Twin-H style runner pattern. Until then, I really like the prospect of the dual Holley/Weber 5200's.
My project is going to run a dual Edmunds with the close carb spacing and 2 Weber DCNF carbs. I'm setting those up for 270 cfm each to feed 358 CID.
Dwardo99 and his uncle Bill needs to get on with it and tell us how those 5200's run!
Mark0
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