Clifford headers
My friend Walt Nowak called Clifford on Friday and ordered a set of headers for his Hudson. Larry told him that he was picking them up on Monday. Larry told Walt that he was getting 20 sets and had orders for 8. Walt made #9, and I know someone else who ordered a set. Does he really have them? I don't know for sure, but if you want a set, maybe you should contact Larry. Good luck!
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I ordered a set today as well. I had called Larry 3 weeks ago and he said they would be ready to order in 3 weeks and here they are. I am getting mine powder coated and I am also getting the X-Pipe as I want to try that configuration. We also talked about other things they can offer. Looks like we can get pistons and they are looking into rods.
Plus I asked about an aluminum twin carb manifold. He said if we got enough guys to say they wanted one they would make them. Its basically down to how many of us get together and ask for a product. He said Jack never bothered with a twin carb manifold because of the Hudson product. I said they are getting hard to find.
Had a pretty good discussion about using the Weber throttle body fuel injection and their manifold. He said if its tuned right and you tune it with software they supply you can pull an extra 60hp. Its not cheap but its a lot of bang for the buck. He is looking for someone to try it on a Hudson. I may try it on my 7X hot engine I am building.0 -
I would be willing to try out the electronic fuel injection system. I don't want to run one in the car I'm building; however, I will be running the engine in Joe Mondello's dyno facility in Crossville TN. It would be an opportunistic chance to see what it can do.
I'd like to compare its power potential over a conventionally carbureted engine. The results sure would have a bearing on my choices for another build in the future.
I would also be in favor of a new Hudson dual 2 barrel manifold, I'll get in line if there is enough interest.
Mark Hudson0 -
My interest is to study this enough so I can match the right cam to this setup. I got a pdf off Larry that shows the setup for this, so I am going to study it. I like the fact the setup has a port you can plug a laptop into and tune. Be nice to get a 308 7X with this on the dyno then publish the results as anyone else gettting the setup can input the same configuration through the software.
I think if we come up with 10 guys who want to get a Aluminum dual carb intake Larry might get one cast for us. He seems pretty open to anything if we can get enough people to say they want one. I put in a request for pistons and rods to see what he can come up with. Be nice to have another piston choice.0 -
If that many people have really ordered the headers, then we should do a group buy and get a discount. I had to put a new exhaust on mine and went with a single 2 1/2 with a Dynomax muffler. I didn't realize how small the factory cast iron exhaust outlet was. The shop had to swedge and weld to get up to the 2 1/2 so I am thinking about headers myself. I would also be interested in a twin carb manifold.0
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If you want to run the stock exhaust manifold, I have the piece you need to use for either a dual or better breathing single exhaust. I bought the patterns and stock for the exhaust outlet adapter previously made by Danny Barrier. I have about 10 on hand at present. I haven't advertised them yet due to the patterns/core boxes being here and needing to get them back to the foundry.
I intend to use one on the Super Wasp.
You may be able to see enough of it on this page:
http://forum.olskoolrodz.com/gallery/showgallery.php?cat=500&page=6&perpage=12&ppuser=1365&what=allfields&=&action=
On the dual intake manifold, I'm in. I would like to see a basic Twin-H manifold chambered for 2 two barrel carbs. The Twin-H intake runner design is about the best out there, and why Jack never bothered to build another. I've got one of his catalogs with bits of tech that note that very thing. However, like everyone else knows, they are getting rare and an aluminum option would be very nice over the heavy cast iron. I'd like to see the exhaust heat box eliminated and run hot water through the former exhaust heated outer shell.
I had a set of custom Venolia pistons made that cost $525.00 a set. The trick was that I kept them as close to a 283/307 Chevy V8 as possible as far as dimentions go. The stock Hudson wrist pin diameter is .968" so a light bushing hone took them right out to Ross Pistons wrist pin dimentions per #975-01-29 @ .975" diameter. The stock 283/307 V8 bore diameter is 3.875" or .062" overbore for the Hudson 308. An off the shelf set of Chevy 283/307 rings will then work also. The only deviations made were the ring stack spacings, no valve pockets in the piston deck (for obvious reasons), and the wrist pin height for the 5" stroker crank. The ring stack spacing was changed to allow for the 7x block relief, the top ring placement had to be lowered to allow for the relief depth.
The stock rods are just fine. They are very tough forged units that are about as light for the strength as you will find within economic reason. Just to know, I did price sets of custom rods from different manufacturers. What makes a Hudson rod so expensive compared to other aftermarket rods is the length and yoke width. Primarily the yoke width carrying a bearing 1.625" wide. Rod length in these engines is very important and should never be planned any shorter than the factory 8.125" length. The length, weight, and strength are fine for an engine of 4.5 or 5.0" stroke up to about 6000 rpms. You've never heard of a Hornet engine tossing a rod, the crank will break long before the rods reach their limit in a naturally aspirated engine. A custom set of rods from Oliver, Carillo, etc - will run you from $2500 to $3500. Something I wouldn't even consider unless you are turbo or supercharging this engine above 3 psi. There is a small thread on here about rod bolts, which I would highly recommend giving a read.
One last thing. When considering a camshaft - give Randy's cams a serious consideration. I am using his "Hot Street" cam for my build and had it checked out using digital encoders - and found it to be as perfect as it gets. Clifford can only use original 7x cams to get the more aggressive lobe profiles, good luck finding an original 7x core that isn't worn beyond regrinding to the more aggressive profiles. Randy's cams are radially undercut to allow the stock 308 shafts enough lift off a smaller base circle to accomplish not only a radical profile, but a very beneficial lobe separation angle. I don't know who grinds Randy's cams, but they are GOOD at it! The lifts didn't deviate but .001" from the card, and all lobes had no deviation across the shaft as measured. The lobe angles didn't deviate more than 1* from the card, and had no deviation across the shaft as measured. Folks, that's tight! Lobe ramp accelerations did not exceed the tappet diameter capability and the aftermarket Mopar lifters are just fine for the more aggressive cam profiles. Randy has done his homework, and it shows. As his website says, if you want a custom grind - call and discuss. I am behind Randy's cams 100%.
Mark Hudson0 -
I love the idea of an aluminum twin 2-barrel manifold. A lot more of them would be bought, I think, if it were compatible with the stock exhaust manifold rather than requiring headers to be used. I have no problem with eliminating the heat riser though ... one could use a plate to block off the exhaust manifold heat section.
What's that popular 2-bbl carb that has a progressive linkage between the two barrels? I would think they'd be ideal for such a setup.0 -
That's an interesting piece. Not sure what it can gain you since the manifold itself is so small, but at least it appears to make a smoother transition up to a larger pipe. Sounds like you are going pretty hard core, I don't plan to get that carried away, at least not yet
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I completely agree with you Park. The carb you are referring to is the Holley/Weber 5200 or Weber DGV series. Great carbs. I had a setup on a Twin-H manifold that I traded to Dwardo99.
The exhuast block off plate you mention can be casted into the manifold as a rather thick flange and the heat chambers underneath the two plenums be open and blocked off with a removable plate so the core sand can be removed. The under-plenum plates can then be used as water inlet/outlet and keep things right in line with the heater tube already used alongside the head. Any new Twin-H needs to be designed with the two barrel in mind, we can always use a one barrel adapter upside down to go the other direction if needed.
I was working on water heating a Twin-H manifold by using a stainless plate between the exhaust and intake, then piping water through the freeze plugs underneath the carb plenums. My freeze plugs were rusted out and completely disappeared in an acid dip - which gave me the ideal in the first place. I was diverted by the purchase of an Edmunds dual two barrel manifold and kinda dropped the idea.
I have since been in a toss up between the Twin-H's superior runners and the Edmunds lack thereof. The Edmunds has the dual 2 barrel flanges, so I'm going with that. I would love to have both elements in one manifold!
Mark0 -
464Saloon wrote:That's an interesting piece. Not sure what it can gain you since the manifold itself is so small, but at least it appears to make a smoother transition up to a larger pipe. Sounds like you are going pretty hard core, I don't plan to get that carried away, at least not yet
It is a pretty nice piece if you intend to run an exhaust manifold. The manifold itself isn't as restrictive as you'd imagine, but the stock outlet definately IS! What I don't think you can see from the pictures is the very wide, oblong incoming ports to the adapter. They make use of the entire collector volume in transitioning into the round outlet ports. On a mildly hopped up or stock 308 being driven quite a bit, I'd use the manifold adapter.In fact, I will use it on the Wasp. I would think it to support flows into the 200 and slightly above hp range.
The 5" stroker I'm building now isn't the hardcore, all out effort - that one is still on the drawing board. I'm going to let the current build teach me a thing or two, then go for the gusto!
Mark0 -
Mark,
Sounds like you know quite a lot. I am flat new at what makes a Hudson run. So far I have replaced the exhaust, replaced the vaccum advance and got the centrifugal unstuck. Mine currently just has the stock 2bbl, and I just want to do a couple of bolt on's and just drive the car. I have more serious projects already in the works on some other cars. I am working on putting some kind of a Twin H together I just have to muster up all the parts. I want to see what difference that would make and then get some adapters and try 2 2bbls on the Twin H manifold.0 -
Hudsonator,
Randy is my source for cams.0 -
Ordered a set of headers with the polished ceramic coating and a 4 barrel intake from Larry at Clifford today. Think he Said he has about 8 sets left. He also tells me that with the short length of the one outlet it will fit short or long wheelbase stepdowns. Everything but the Jet. I think these will go on the '52 Wasp Coupe.0
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464Saloon wrote:Mark,
Sounds like you know quite a lot. I am flat new at what makes a Hudson run. So far I have replaced the exhaust, replaced the vaccum advance and got the centrifugal unstuck. Mine currently just has the stock 2bbl, and I just want to do a couple of bolt on's and just drive the car. I have more serious projects already in the works on some other cars. I am working on putting some kind of a Twin H together I just have to muster up all the parts. I want to see what difference that would make and then get some adapters and try 2 2bbls on the Twin H manifold.
I'm with you on what you want to do with your car. I'm kinda going a bit heinous on the '49, but dearly love driving my Super Wasp in a "bolt on" state also. Where I once thought the "three on the tree" was not so nice - I've become addicted. So, I understand where you are coming from.
I went back and read your post on the new exhaust system and would recommend the dual exhaust adapter. I am actually going to run it as a single into a 3" pipe and do the same split beyond the muffler, as you had done, on the Super Wasp. Your 2-1/2" exhaust system would work just fine and rid yourself of that restrictive outlet. The adapter bolts in directly on to your existing exhaust manifold and replaces the teeny weeny one. You would have to fabricate a new flange to fit your pipe that goes into a single.
That rotating linkage on the stepdown single two barrels makes it kinda difficult to swap carbs. I'd suggest watching e-bay for a Weber DCNF carburetor. The bolt holes need to be filed out about .012" to fit the Carter flange pattern, but its highly doable. The beautiful thing about those is the ability to change venturis for different cfm capacities. As you change things on your engine, any circuit in the carb can be re-tuned with readily available parts. I'm sure some kind of adapter for the linkage could be made to fit the weber throttle plate lever. Its like an IDA/IDF Weber through the barrels but compact with the float bowl beside the barrels instead of between them.
Not a thing wrong with 262's.
Mark0 -
hudsondad wrote:Ordered a set of headers with the polished ceramic coating and a 4 barrel intake from Larry at Clifford today. Think he Said he has about 8 sets left. He also tells me that with the short length of the one outlet it will fit short or long wheelbase stepdowns. Everything but the Jet. I think these will go on the '52 Wasp Coupe.
Curious to the lead time on that order. Those two pieces sound like a hot setup.0 -
Larry said he had 20 sets of headers and needs to send the header out for ceramic coating. He said thats about 10 days worth I believe. In all I got the feeling we were talking about 3 weeks on the outside. He seemed to be committed to making more hudson stuff and talked about an aluminum dual carb manifold off the same casting as the four barrel and having adaptors for either dual single or dual two barrel carbs. I'd like to try a small four barrel edelbrock. Don't know if a 500 cfm is too large. Any Comments? The wasp runs pretty good with the 262 and .040 over bore which makes it around 270+ ci. Has a rebuilt single range HM and early type rear.0
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I have been talking to Larry about a Aluminum replacement for the Hudson Twin H cast manifold. He said he is willing to take a Hudson Twin H intake and have a casting made from that so we have a replacement. As you all know the Twin H intake is scarce. Larry said it would take 20 pre orders from us to cover the tooling and make this happen. Thats $350 per intake which is good I think for this and we get a replacement to the factory intake because its already the best. I myself need two so is anyone else willing to put in an order? is there enough need to make it worth while spending our time and money?. Larry is willing to work with us on the design to get it done. I agree that the best model for the cast is a factory Twin H, we could modify the carb inlets to allow for different configurations that is about all I would change.
So get your ideas and opinions in and lets see if we can make this happen.0 -
51HornetA
I will add my name to the preorder on the manifolds. If we get the 20 orders what is the estimated time for fabrication? Also how is Randy on the camshafts contacted?
Let me know.
Thanks,
John0 -
Here is Randy's website http://21stcenturyhudson.net/products.htm and I will find out from Larry what the details are. I think if we group together for parts we can get them made. For the small vendor its the only feasible way. I am trying to get us some piston choices as well. I know Dale Cooper has a new stock type piston but I am looking for a three ring choice as well.
Also check out the links section on my site as I have most of the Hudson vendors listed. Plus links to a lot of other parts.0 -
Mark,
Mine is a 308 with a 262 head. I did not split the exhaust, it is a straight 2 1/2 all the way back. The mainiflod sounds like a good idea, but we are all going to have to get together on a linkage. I heard they are the toughest parts to get.0 -
Ah, I thought you had an original 262. A 262 is good, 308 even better.
You may have misunderstood me, I intend to run the adapter into a single pipe, then split the exhaust out the back of the muffler. There is nothing wrong with using the dual adapter as a single into a larger pipe - whether its ever split into a dual downstream or not.
I'm going to have to sit down and do some work on a cross compatible linkage system. I did have a linkage outfit designed to use a Pacemaker single WA-1 to a Twin-H with dual Holley/Weber 5200's. I would definately recommend using the 5200's for a Twin-H due to the economy and performance of the progressive 2 barrels. They flow about 230 cfm each out of the box, which is spot on for a 308. Rebuilt 5200s usually run about $100 each, the adapters to the Twin-H $15.00 each, the linkage runs $30.00.
What I don't have is a linkage format that will adapt a Twin-H/5200 setup to the rotating 2 barrel Hornet linkage, which is probably what most of us need. The DCNF suggestion was for replacing the single 2 barrel carb. I realize the single two barrel is not as sexy as a Twin-H, but could be a stealthy performance piece on its own with the DCNF or Holley 2 barrel. With a bit of testing, this may be the direction the Wasp goes.
Mark0 -
hudsondad wrote:Larry said he had 20 sets of headers and needs to send the header out for ceramic coating. He said thats about 10 days worth I believe. In all I got the feeling we were talking about 3 weeks on the outside. He seemed to be committed to making more hudson stuff and talked about an aluminum dual carb manifold off the same casting as the four barrel and having adaptors for either dual single or dual two barrel carbs. I'd like to try a small four barrel edelbrock. Don't know if a 500 cfm is too large. Any Comments? The wasp runs pretty good with the 262 and .040 over bore which makes it around 270+ ci. Has a rebuilt single range HM and early type rear.
I got a suggestion....
How about you build a 308 and a dual range hydro, to put in the wasp, and while the 262 isn't being used, we can store that in a certain 50 commodore 6? :cool:0 -
Supposedly it is the original engine that came in it with 66,000 miles and somewhere in time the original owner, two before me put the 262 head on, repainted it and had a funky interior put in. Other than that it is a pretty original low option stickshift car.0
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Mark, "The stock Hudson wrist pin diameter is .968" so a light bushing hone took them right out to the Chevy .975" diameter."
You stated the wrong manufacturer (Chevy) of the wrist pin;
the correct manufacturer is FORD, for these motors 360-390-427 FE Ford 0.975" Piston Pin
SB Chevy wrist pin dia is 0.927"0 -
I am picking up my Clifford Headers this Saturday (4/15/06). I did a will call pick up. Larry said that he is shipping out some headers today.
VicTor Z0 -
Yes mine have shipped already and are on their way. When I get them I will take pictures and put on my website.0
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54 HSWH wrote:Mark, "The stock Hudson wrist pin diameter is .968" so a light bushing hone took them right out to the Chevy .975" diameter."
You stated the wrong manufacturer (Chevy) of the wrist pin;
the correct manufacturer is FORD, for these motors 360-390-427 FE Ford 0.975" Piston Pin
SB Chevy wrist pin dia is 0.927"
Well, somehow I missed this post. So, I'll clarify.
I had basic "off the shelf" Chevy 283/307 piston forgings machined to my specifications. Actually, the only dimentions differing from the 305 was +.005" on the diameter, making it 3.880" ; the compression height was changed to match the increased stroke, and the wrist pin was also an "off the shelf" item at .975" diameter. Its not uncommon to use .975" wrist pins in hi-performance Chevy engines. I saw it as a chance to leave the original, burnished wrist pin bushings in the rods and have them trued by upsizing to the .975 pin. The Piston/pin set was custom machined by Venolia, for $525.00. I consider that a huge value for the quality of product I recieved. I kept the price down by searching for as many "off the shelf" items as I could find in thier catalogs. The 305 piston with .975" pin was the closest match - and obviously saved me some dinero.
The Ross "standard pin list" part # is 975-07-29 , it would be a nice way to hone some stock pistons and wrist pin bushings to eliminate that tad of wear. Those buggers are responsible for most of the knocks in engines being freshened up with rings and a valve job.
Sorry if I caused anybody some grief at the NAPA store hunting for wrist pins. I was hunting wrist pins based on dimentional specifications only, with no regard to original application.
Mark0 -
VicTor Z wrote:I am picking up my Clifford Headers this Saturday (4/15/06). I did a will call pick up. Larry said that he is shipping out some headers today.
VicTor Z
I'm really glad to hear all of this good news. I'll be looking for mine on the doorstep.
Now, the machining on my engine is going kinda slow. If it ain't one thing, its another.
Mark0 -
Mark, the wrist pins are a Ford (NOT Chevy) wrist pin, never an off the shelf item & pre-built into a Chevy piston.
The pistons you purchased are custom pistons.
When you are wrong, U R WRONG; face the music and admit it.
blahahahah hehe0 -
John,,,I was searching for "off the shelf" Ross or Venolia wrist pins!
Yes, they are custom pistons - based from 283/307 forging blanks.
I said I was sorry for not clarifying it wasn't NAPA.
I promise ya, they are chevy forgings machined for .975" wrist pins based upon Ross wrist pins - part #975-07-29 . But you won't get them from NAPA.
Hehehee!
Mark0
This discussion has been closed.
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