Suspension Rant:

rambos_ride

center]

Here's something I really don't understand...Suspension changes...I know that the tech has changed in 50 years but it Seems to me like most people just look for something that will fit or is pre fabricated without any consideration for the differences in ride height, weight, weight distribution, or geometry between the "donor" and the Hudson. (donor here means new or used parts...)

For instance everyone just looks for a shock that bolts on and fits regardless of what car that shock was made for. That newer car could be +-200-1000+- lbs different in weight - let alone width, ride height, weight distribution, and basic stock handling charateristics

So Is a something like a Mustang II Suspension really a lateral swap for handling improvements - or just convienant? * Last time I drove a Mustang it was a lot different than driving a Cadillac...

At the least I beleive a "donor" car should match in size and weight/weight distribution and basic handling characteristics as closely as possible.

So if anyone is interested...my plan is to have new springs made front and rear to the ride height I want (Jay-note: thats 'ride height' not "parked height" ) and it will be based upon the actual running vehicle weight when completed - not what I think it is - and not what the owners states (too many mechanical and fabrication changes - I'm actually thinking the 49 will come in lighter than factory specs...)

Same goes for the shocks - rather than spend $100.00 and change for off the shelf "wonder what it really fits" shocks I will have some built for around $250.00 that AGAIN will be based upon the actual running vehicle weight when complete - not what I think it is - and not what the owners states - AND the shocks will either be adjustable or set to the handling preference I prefer.

All told I should be into all new springs and shocks - made specifically for the application for well under 1k!

So there you go - Let's get a discussion rolling and see I can learn something new! (like maybe how to typo...)

[Deleted User]

Well Dan, I hope I'm understanding you correctly. I think its fine if someone wants to build a car close to original specs, but I think many improvements can be made to any vehicle. Thats why guys put MII's on cars which originally had straight axles. A major improvement. I think what guys like me are doing is looking at alternative ways of doing things which we feel may improve the looks or performance of our cars. When I looked at front suspensions and motor/tranny combos, I talked with guys at hot rod shops and read articles on the MII and LT1 options (this was before I knew of this forum). I have had some hot rodding experience (be it somewhat outdated) and have fabbed on every Hawg I've owned in the past. I may have some crazy ideas sometimes, but I don't do any final work on my vehicles without carefully looking into the sitch (other than buying a rod sight unseen! :-(

For instance, there are many ways to go on a rear suspension for my Pace. It is really not a heavy car (listed at 3,466 lbs.) and there are many ways to do a reliable and safe rear suspension. I bring up some here on these forums to see if anyone has done it before or may have some ideas/questions about a particular idea. I do look at some products off the shelf for some ease in installing/fabricating, but these often are from very reputible companies that have been in the custom car business for many years. I also subscribe to Custom Rodder magazine which always has good articles and ideas for modifieds of the 50's era (and 60's too, but thats not my style yet). In fact, I got the idea for a Corvette IRS from an article they did with a Corvette IRS on a 49 Merc. I think it could be done well, but too much of a big job for me and too expensive to have a shop do it for me. But a cool idea to throw around the guys!

For me, stock isn't always what I want. Hudson rides pretty low for cars in their era, but the "parked height" is not what I want. I want it to sit very low when I'm parked or cruising a parking lot, and a little higher on the highway. My research regarding Air Ride Tech has given me alot of info on using their products on my particular car and the needs I want. I believe that, at least in the old days, you didn't need to get aircraft-like specific on many design features. There are allowable variances in many good designs. I have to think guys like those at Air Ride cannot afford to screw up too many custom rods or their reputation (and financial well being) would be ruined. For me, even if I had found a way to get my front end lower than stock but using the original suspension, it would still be mostly an old suspension. The A arms would be old, as well as the steering arms, etc. I didn't want any old parts in my front end, and I don't think you will find new A arms at Checker Auto if you bend one. Now, could someone have a viable car with the original type suspension? Of course! But since companies like Fat Mans and Air Ride exist, thankfully we have a choice.

Again, Fat Mans (and there are other good brands as well, I'm not brand pushing here) have done a number of Hudson MII set ups. I told them what motor/tranny combo I was using and they informed me of the springs I would need. I'm sure that over the years problems have come up and most of these companies have worked them out. So I am comfortable with many of these top companies in looking at some off-the-shelf products. Of course, there will always be something which has to be custom fabbed.

A 4-link for me would allow my car to sit much lower and provide a safe, efficient suspension. Airbags are made to handle load rates varing according to need. A triangulated 4-link would allow me to trash the panhard bar, they're not needed. I like this set-up because it keeps the axle centered and with the limited movement allowed on a stepdown, thats very important. I'm not really comfortable with the leaf spring airbags as they just seem to be a cheesy method, not saying they aren't safe, just think another way is better for me. I'm not sure if I'll go with the Shockwave type bags or another, but whatever way I like, I'll discuss with others to see how it will/will not work on my application.

Just for thoughts :-)

Jay

rambos_ride

Well said Jay.

I was watching the end of a show last night where they were putting cars through a 4 pad or 4 post test to determine exactly how much stress the car would be put under and what type of suspension would be needed for the car. Pretty cool stuff - If I see it again I'll get the name of the show - I'd love to see a stepdown put on one of those contraptions!

I hear you and would love to try some more exotic things given the budget and time. Please don't feel like I was singling you out for your plans - my rant was just an overall accumulation of general observations from both forums about suspension, handling and buying shocks (the cool stuff they did with that car too...see above...)

When I looked up some of the shock #s folks where throwing around for bolt in replacements one of the cars they fit was a 4200lbs 50's Caddy and one number was a 60's Corvette - talk about a mismatch of handling characteristics.

But answer me this... I still don't understand how a suspension designed and built for a MII: 2900 lb car with a 95" wheelbase works the same in a Pacemaker: 3400lb car with 114" wheel base or even worse my Commodore: 3600lb and 124" wheelbase?

[Deleted User]

rambos_ride wrote:

But answer me this... I still don't understand how a suspension designed and built for a MII: 2900 lb car with a 95" wheelbase works the same in a Pacemaker: 3400lb car with 114" wheel base or even worse my Commodore: 3600lb and 124" wheelbase?

I'm not an engineer Dan, but all I can say is that they are installed on numerous cars and trucks out there. I guess that the components are built heavier duty than the original MII suspensions. And mine was ordered with springs meant for the weight of my car with a V8 in it.

Back when I was building my '38 Dodge Coupe, the guys with cash were starting to use the MII out of actual Mustang II's adapted to there rod. It was an expensive alternative then. So, as I was only making $6 an hour then detailing cars, a friend of mine (he had a '40 Chevy Sedan and '33 Dodge 1/4 ton p/u) and I installed a IFS out of a '63 Corvair van. This was a common front suspension swap then (though at the tail end). It worked great. But I think there were some problems with the MII in heavier cars back then because they were made for lighter cars. You saw them mostly in the lighter cars of the '20's to '40's. But as the industry saw that the design itself was good for handling and lowering ability, they began to manufacture aftermarket MII's which were made to deal with the heavier and wider applications of cars and trucks from the '50's on.

I would love to have had a early Corvette front and rear suspension on mine, but that would have entailed a much greater cost due to the engineering required, which I do not have the expertise to handle. The front stub frame I'm using was built specifically for the step down Hudsons. I guess we'll see how well they did when my donor gets here and we can begin to do some work on it.

I am curious what the next generation of suspension swaps will be....................

Jay

P.S. I agree with your comments on the shock thing Dan. Many times in the off-roading world I have seen guys more concerned with the length of a shock, but disregarding the other concerns, such as weight, and how much abuse it will take, etc. And the 4' Super Lift spring kit I bought for my old Jimmy came with shocks which I later learned were not long enough and made the truck ride like a skateboard on washboarded roads!

rambos_ride

...I'm not an engineer Dan, but all I can say is that they are installed on numerous cars and trucks out there. I guess that the components are built heavier duty than the original MII suspensions. And mine was ordered with springs meant for the weight of my car with a V8 in it. ...

Cool - so for your setup the springs are rated correctly.



Another thing I was just thinking of is how do most people account for engine positioning for the front suspension?



I've thought with my build that since my 454 sits about 6" farther back than the original that it should (in theory) make the weight distribution more central and reduce possible heavyness or steering problems going into a corner. (I'm no engineer either, well a computer engineer I guess)(Yesturday I could't spel enginere today I is won )



Other than the looks and the wow factor - would you really want an early Corvette suspension system? I've driven some late 60's early 70's Corvettes and other than really nice cornering found them to be very rough riding and would never want to try and put any real kind of mileage on one - without wearing a kidney belt! I haven't driven any newer Vettes maybe they've found a better mix of ride and handling? Would the Hudsons weight distribution utilize that type of suspension in the same way?



I'd think an ultimate Hudson suspension would be one with a smooth ride and yet still tight in the corners - newer 2dr Cadillac or Mercury suspension maybe? Of course those cars weigh more than a Hudson!



I'm going to look back through the TV listings and see if I can find the show and some more information on that 4pad testing setup. Supposedly there are several facilities throughout the country (according to the show...) and if it insn't to gawd awful expensive it would be fun to run a stepdown through the paces and get their recommendations on suspension setups with my drivetrain setup.

[Deleted User]

I just thought the Vette suspensions are trick looking. Honestly I don't know how well they would ride, though I am told my Coupe has about the same curb weight of a Vette (a '95 at least). Hey, I rode nothing but ridged framed Hawgs with 18" Apes on 6" dogbones! Not comfortable for more than 45 minutes, but looks way cool! But Mama won't let me play with those amymore! (Something about a bad low back and a metal plate in my cervics!) :-(

Haven't got to the engine mounting part yet. I planned to get back on the forum here when I get there. I think asking around everyone here will give me enough info. I'm sure there must be some formula, but heck if I know what it is.

Now a ride on a test track would be awesome! Let us know what you find out on this.

Jay

P.S. Dan, I may get down to the donor car next week, it is all dependent on Al's schedule and he has had a couple cars he's needed to get finished first and he's on vacation this week.