A question of ethics

Unknown

Hi All,



If someone sells and ships you a part that is defective, who do you believe should pay to get the part back to the seller? In other words, should you be

responsible to pay for someone elses (the seller's) mistake? I ask because I'm involved in such a dilema. If you want, please feel free to PM for the scoop.



Thanks,



Dave

[Deleted User]

Dave53-7C wrote:

Hi All,



If someone sells and ships you a part that is defective, who do you believe should pay to get the part back to the seller? In other words, should you be

responsible to pay for someone elses (the seller's) mistake? I ask because I'm involved in such a dilema. If you want, please feel free to PM for the scoop.



Thanks,



Dave

The seller should stand by their product or service, especially if it was their mistake and if they could have prevented it. In most cases, defects can be identified prior to shipping via testing or simple inspection. Ask the seller why you should pay for his mistake or misrepresentation. If the seller doesn't recognize standard American business ethics and doesn't value your biz then screw him and tell everyone your experience. Let them decide for themselves. Hudson is a small community and if the seller makes a living in this hobby or simply frequents this forum then he can expect some fallout. Let the seller make right or pay the piper. There is a consequence for every action, good or bad. You know what is right and how you would handle it if you were the seller.

Personally, I feel there is a obligation to inform Hudsonites of dealings good or bad. You hear good feedback here, why not bad? The thread police don't like the reality of dealing with ugly issues here but if they allow people to conduct business on this forum then they need to allow for the potential feedback, positive AND negative.

[Deleted User]

nhp1127 wrote:

The seller should stand by their product or service, especially if it was their mistake and if they could have prevented it. In most cases, defects can be identified prior to shipping via testing or simple inspection. Ask the seller why you should pay for his mistake or misrepresentation. If the seller doesn't recognize standard American business ethics and doesn't value your biz then screw him and tell everyone your experience. Let them decide for themselves. Hudson is a small community and if the seller makes a living in this hobby then he had better be smart. Let the seller make right or pay the piper. There is a consequence for every action, good or bad. Some people will take things lying down. Don't be politically correct and get screwed. You know what is right and how you would handle it if you were the seller.

very well written. as a small business owner i know what is required to continue to buy the groceries.......

Unknown

nhp1127 wrote:

The seller should stand by their product or service, especially if it was their mistake and if they could have prevented it. In most cases, defects can be identified prior to shipping via testing or simple inspection. Ask the seller why you should pay for his mistake or misrepresentation. If the seller doesn't recognize standard American business ethics and doesn't value your biz then screw him and tell everyone your experience. Let them decide for themselves. Hudson is a small community and if the seller makes a living in this hobby then he had better be smart. Let the seller make right or pay the piper. There is a consequence for every action, good or bad. Some people will take things lying down. Don't be politically correct and get screwed. You know what is right and how you would handle it if you were the seller.

Thanks to all who have responded so far. Your thoughs are well stated. As it stands now, the part seller (a HET Club Member) has basically has told me that if I want my money back, I have to pay return shipping of about $25.00 to $30.00. For starters, I think a letter to the club and the State's Attorney's office (detailing what amounts to extortion) is pending. Although it's sad when anyone gets cheated, it's criminal when one club member knowingly cheats another or uses the club for nefarious activities.



Dave

Unknown

AS A 35 YEAR MEMBER OF h.e.t. and a buyer and seller for all this time. I would like to present another train of thought. I try to describe my parts the best I can, however the buyer might have higher expectations of a used part. many times, I sandblast and prime the parts as well as pay my guys for this as well as packaging and a trip to the Post Office and /or UPS OR FED EX.iF THE PART IS UNSATISFACTORY TO THE BUYER. MY POLICY IS RETURN IT FOR FULL REFUND.. iF YOU BUY SOMETHING THAT NEEDS RETURNING TO sEARS, PENNYS OR ALMOST ANY RETAILER, IT IS YOUR JOB TO RETURN IT AT YOUR COST. AND MANY SUPPLIERS EVEN CHARGE A RESTOCKING FEE. MOST TIMES I EAT A LOT OF THE COST OF SHIPPING, ESPECIALLY TO OVERSEAS CUSTOMERS, BUT ACCEPT IT AS PART OF DOING BUSINESS. THAT IS MY POLICY, AND IF NOT ACCEPTABLE TO YOU PLEASE DONT ORDER ANYTHING FROM ME. REALLY I AM GETTING TIRED OF ALL THE NITPICKERS WHO EXPECT PERFECT 60 AND 70 YEAR OLD USED PARTS TO BE LIKE NEW. I AM ALSO A RESTORER AND KNOW WHAT IT TAKES TO RESTORE THESE CARS. HUDSONLY BILL ALBRIGHT

[Deleted User]

Another problem arises when the buyer wants a specific part, but either gives a vague description or misidentifies the part, or the year/model/application. Seller sends the part that the buyer wants, according to the description by said buyer, and it is not the right part. In cases like that, the buyer should send the part back on his dime, then the seller can then send the right part, with the buyer again paying the shipping. Too many times, people put the blame squarely on the seller, but the buyer needs to come straight when he screws up, too!!! Hasn't really been an issue with me as a very occasional seller/buyer of Hudson parts, but it has in the past with selling Mopar stuff.

[Deleted User]

I agree with everyone so far, but Dave said it was a "defective" part, so I don't think he was referring to honest mistakes that can happen by a seller or buyer. In my opinion, if the part was defective, the seller should pay the freight.

I bought some rear jumpseats for my wife's Disco II for a company back in Florida. They sent me a seat for "non-rear a/c" truck, when ours has rear a/c and I notified him at the time of the order. He sent me a return UPS so he paid the freight. I thought that was very fair, anybody can make a mistake, but he did right by me.

Jay

Unknown

bill a wrote:

AS A 35 YEAR MEMBER OF h.e.t. and a buyer and seller for all this time. I would like to present another train of thought. I try to describe my parts the best I can, however the buyer might have higher expectations of a used part. many times, I sandblast and prime the parts as well as pay my guys for this as well as packaging and a trip to the Post Office and /or UPS OR FED EX.iF THE PART IS UNSATISFACTORY TO THE BUYER. MY POLICY IS RETURN IT FOR FULL REFUND.. iF YOU BUY SOMETHING THAT NEEDS RETURNING TO sEARS, PENNYS OR ALMOST ANY RETAILER, IT IS YOUR JOB TO RETURN IT AT YOUR COST. AND MANY SUPPLIERS EVEN CHARGE A RESTOCKING FEE. MOST TIMES I EAT A LOT OF THE COST OF SHIPPING, ESPECIALLY TO OVERSEAS CUSTOMERS, BUT ACCEPT IT AS PART OF DOING BUSINESS. THAT IS MY POLICY, AND IF NOT ACCEPTABLE TO YOU PLEASE DONT ORDER ANYTHING FROM ME. REALLY I AM GETTING TIRED OF ALL THE NITPICKERS WHO EXPECT PERFECT 60 AND 70 YEAR OLD USED PARTS TO BE LIKE NEW. I AM ALSO A RESTORER AND KNOW WHAT IT TAKES TO RESTORE THESE CARS. HUDSONLY BILL ALBRIGHT

Bill,



This was not directed to you. As a matter of fact, I'm expecting some parts from you right now. However, I'm really insulted by your statements; ie; "nitpicking" and "don't order parts from me." Where did that come from? No need to lash out and direct your anger at me. I've done nothing to you and have had enough BS to deal with regarding this mess and don't expect any from people whom I'm asking for help! I was sold an item that was represented to be "As New." If what was done to me happened to you, I'm sure you would think and speak differently. For your information, I'm a businessman as well and have been for decades. I know what constitues good service AND good will. I'm sure you conduct yourself like a trustyworthy and upstanding man should. That doesn't mean that you (or I) should be a punching bag for dishonest people nor does it mean we should ignor a legitimate complaint. And if a retailer was misleading and sold me defective goods, you'd better believe I'd get ALL of my money back and would not pay for the priviledge. For that matter, they should compensate me for wasting my time and causing me to bring defective goods back. Good business is not a game where one make rules to suit themself. Agreed?



Dave

[Deleted User]

Dave53-7C wrote:

Bill,



This was not directed to you. As a matter of fact, I'm expecting some parts from you right now. However, I'm really insulted by your statements; ie; "nitpicking" and "don't order parts from me." Where did that come from? No need to lash out and direct your anger at me. I've done nothing to you and have had enough BS to deal with regarding this mess and don't expect any from people whom I'm asking for help! I was sold an item that was represented to be "As New." If what was done to me happened to you, I'm sure you would think and speak differently. For your information, I'm a businessman as well and have been for decades. I know what constitues good service AND good will. I'm sure you conduct yourself like a trustyworthy and upstanding man should. That doesn't mean that you (or I) should be a punching bag for dishonest people nor does it mean we should ignor a legitimate complaint. And if a retailer was misleading and sold me defective goods, you'd better believe I'd get ALL of my money back and would not pay for the priviledge. For that matter, they should compensate me for wasting my time and causing me to bring defective goods back. Good business is not a game where one make rules to suit themself. Agreed?



Dave

As you stated, the item was misrepresented. It was supposed to be as new. Pretty simple concept. I agree with Bill that selling used parts can have different levels of expectations with buyers. These expectations must be addressed in advance by testing or inspection. If it is a cosmetic part then perhaps a digital photo. A full refund is expected if the part is wrong (seller error) or broken and I would expect the seller to buck up to his mistake and pay shipping- it's the cost of doing and keeping business. If not then I wouldn't do business with that person and I would let everyone know it. E-bay is a multi-billion dollar company and they deal with this issue all the time. That's why they have feedback, digital pictures, etc. They do a great job for the tremendous volume they do.

Good service: I ordered a new braided battery cable from Dave Kostansek / Tim Cheney and it got lost in the mail. I called him up ((440) 293-4079) and he sent me a replacement at no charge (as he should have) via priority mail I've bought five or six things from him and I tell everyone about Dave. Word of mouth is powerful business.

Unknown

First let me say that the Hudson folks have been as a whole very good to deal with. Second let me say that some are just unreasonable to think that some parts NOS or used should be cheaper and in some cases in better condition. We have an online store as you my know and have sold many parts world wide. Most of the parts are NOS and never been installed. A 50+ year old part - even in the box can show some degradation just from age. We do our best to photograph and detail the condition. In all of the parts we have sold - only one customer wasn't happy with the condition. An overseas client buying a NOS (as we thought) hood ornament. Part of it was suppose to be gold and was chrome. We worked out a very deep discount and he was happy. I learned a long time ago - one dissatisfied customer will bring a lot of bad will. I have bought many parts from all of the gurus of Hudson's, Bill Albright, Glenn Johson, Perry Spring and many others. They all are very very professional and a wealth of knowledge. I truly appreciate their dedication to the parts and bringing Hudsons back on the road. With all of that said. It amazes me that when we show our parts for sale at some meet - at considerable expense and time to get there - There is always the guy who is ecstatic to find the part he needs or grateful for the reference to the other parts guys who may have it. Then there is the guy who thinks a 70 year old tail or headlight lens in the box is too expensive for his vehicle. Oh well you just can't satisfy everyone.

[Deleted User]

If I make a mistake and order the wrong part or if I buy a part that the seller says has some small flaws, then I am not satisfied, I will gladly pay for the return postage. BUT, if I'm am assured that the part is the right one for my vehicle or is in as new condition, and it is neither, I feel that I have been misled and the seller should be responsible for the return postage. When Buying over the INTERNET or by MAIL or by PHONE, All we can do is rely on the description provided by the seller. I have ordered parts from the internet that had a picture included in the description. When I get the part, it is clear that the part pictured (what I thought I was ordering ) was not the same part they shipped. Instead they used the best part as BAIT, then switched to a part that was not in as good condition. Am I being nitpicky? Probably, but when I spend My money, I expect to recieve what I paid for...
Nuff Said
Bob Hickson

Unknown

dAVE, i WAS NOT SPEAKING TO YOU AT ALL BUT RECALLING SOME PROBLEMS I HAVE HAD IN THE PAST. iT ILS HARD TO SATISFY ALL OF THE PEOPLE ALL OF THE TIME, AND VERY FRUSTRATING WHEN YOU TRY AND FAIL, BILL ALBRIGHT

Unknown

bill a wrote:

dAVE, i WAS NOT SPEAKING TO YOU AT ALL BUT RECALLING SOME PROBLEMS I HAVE HAD IN THE PAST. iT ILS HARD TO SATISFY ALL OF THE PEOPLE ALL OF THE TIME, AND VERY FRUSTRATING WHEN YOU TRY AND FAIL, BILL ALBRIGHT

Bill,



Since what you said was in response to my post, I must have misunderstood your point and taken it personally. For those of us in the Hudson world, you and others like you are great assets. Not only because of the parts you offer, but for the knowledge and helpfulness you extend to those who ask. But you must admit, we as adults are responsible for what we say and do. My point is that customers, whether it's you, me or anyone for that matter, should not be subject to extortion by being made pay for correcting someone elses mistake.



Dave

[Deleted User]

It has been my experience that there are some core Hudson parts people who are good as gold and we all know who they are. Then there are what I call peripheral people who are selling stuff here and there and these are the people you have to be careful of. No really knock to them intended its just a plain fact they are not pro parts dealers. You get a part from them and its wrong they will not honor shipping because its an out of pocket expense. Now this is not always the case some guys will bend over backwards as a matter of pride some will dig in and as soon as you get mad its all over but the crying. I have been burnt twice and now I stick to the core people. I don't care if the guy is advertising a 7X engine still in the crate I just steer clear.

Unknown

Some of you may recall that I was burned on the purchase of a 54 Hornet Special Brougham from a "fellow club member from Michigan". I was lied to and mislead by that individual concerning the condition of the car.



If the seller misrepresents ( intentionally or unintentionally) or flat out lies about the condition of the product then that seller should be fully responsible for any fees to return the product.

Unknown

Dave53-7C wrote:

Bill,

Since what you said was in response to my post, I must have misunderstood your point and taken it personally. For those of us in the Hudson world, you and others like you are great assets. Not only because of the parts you offer, but for the knowledge and helpfulness you extend to those who ask. But you must admit, we as adults are responsible for what we say and do. My point is that customers, whether it's you, me or anyone for that matter, should not be subject to extortion by being made pay for correcting someone elses mistake.

Dave

While I know this is without a doubt a touchy subject to Dave and others, the society we live in condones behaviors that I was raised to find offensive. I still believe the word of one Human to another Human should be inviolate... but the laws and the way we are educating our children today makes my idealistic way of thinking countrary to the mainstream and in some cases laws.

Unfortunately I as a person entering my 6th decade of life, am now observing that Honesty, Itegrity and Character are not personnally important to many folks. But, my expectations are the opposite... so I get to be disappointed more often. Several of you stated you are business persons...that is fine, but as a business person your ideas and ideals are usually not the same as mainstream society. Why do I say this? Each day I administer many contracts. The administration includes, writing specifications, requesting, evaluating and accepting cost quotations and negotiating acceptable proposals into legal contracts. In my capacity, inspection of services, products, performance measures and payment of invoices is an everyday event. You quickly reckognize the vendors who operate with Honesty, Integrity and Character. These companies preform to the specifications and deliver on time. Those with suspect Honesty, Integrity and Character are constantly formulating excuses as to why someone else including our staff is responsible for thier inablity to preform.

Bottomline... social pressure to operate honestly and to make ethical behavior the norm is required. My employer requires 4 hours of ethics training every 6 months. Why... because many who are hired can not distinguish what constitues ethical behavior. Unethical conduct is grounds for immediate dismissal.

You and I can contribute to correcting the problems discussed here in ... join with others who volunteer at schools or churches to teach our youth and children what Honesty, Integrity and Character are and in turn create ethical behaviors.

Thanks for the chance to share.:)

How thankful I am for the right to have and express this opinion... Happy 4th of July!!!!!

Unknown

Ken, All I Can Say Is Amen

Unknown

bill a wrote:

Ken, All I Can Say Is Amen

I second that Amen. It used to be that it was rare to find a dishonest person and now it is the other way around. At least where I live now. I sure miss the little rural town that I came from. You would get run out of town for being a cheat there.
Bob

464Saloon

This dishonest seller isn't in North Dakota is he?

Unknown

464Saloon wrote:

This dishonest seller isn't in North Dakota is he?

No he is not.