what front end for my street rod?

Unknown

Hello everyone. I am beginning my street rod conversion of a 49 two door commodore.



We are going to put in a subframe, driveline, rearend, brakes, etc.

Going to try some trick stuff, like power hood lift, trunk lift.

This is a great forum, I have learned alot from you all.

Any ideas on what front end I shoud try I would appreciate it.

rambos_ride

commodore8 wrote:

Hello everyone. I am beginning my street rod conversion of a 49 two door commodore.

We are going to put in a subframe, driveline, rearend, brakes, etc.
Going to try some trick stuff, like power hood lift, trunk lift.
This is a great forum, I have learned alot from you all.
Any ideas on what front end I shoud try I would appreciate it.

Hello,

From the sounds of it I would point you to Fatman Fab - who makes a good looking front "stub-kit" for the hudson that uses modern suspension and steering and you can go with air ride if you wish and want to spend the $$

http://www.fatmanfab.com/

JSRail bought one or is buying one I'm sure he could fill you in on more info...?

Other than that I think I have read on this forum where people have used camaro front ends but I wouldn't know what year.

I opted to keep the centerpoint steering with some slight mods and still got a 454 to fit!

[Deleted User]

yeah commodore8, I bought a Fatmans MII, Stage II (tough I'm going to change to Shockwaves I think). There stub frame supposedly mates right up to the original frame width. My car ended up with bad frame rot, so I had to get a donor shell/frame which I haven't brought to my place yet. After the chem dip, we will start the front suspension install, so can't tell you yet how it goes. But it looks real purty in my garage! lol I think the whole set-up (I got the power rack too) was around $2,500 or so (including the stub frame). You could probably do a camaro clip cheaper, but I liked how the Fatman stub looked and the ease in which it supposedly matches up, and very clean.

Good luck and keep us posted!

Jay

[Deleted User]

Here is a link to a very comprehensive article that details the installation of a Fatman frame stub & Air-Ride suspension in a '51 stepdown.



http://www.webrodder.com/article.php?AID=62&SID=16&CID=12&PHPSESSID=3bbf636dd0a640ff9390a32df7c36f52



Good article and they do address the fact that while you will certainly have a greater cash outlay going with the Fatman produt than with a Camaro or other boneyard swap, your time spent to complete the project will be far shorter due to the design of the Fatman stub that features exactly matching grafting points, & perfect front sheet metal mounting points.



So, as in almost all other projects involving the restoration of our Hudsons, the choice becomes how much available time do do each of us have vs. how much available $$.



IMHO, the Fatman product seems like a darn nice way to go, and allows a range of suspension options from basic Mustang II to air bags, and steering options including manual & power rack options. ( If you want to commit the $$.)



Tom Drew

Unknown

I drove my 48 coupe last weekend for the first time. It has a fatman with coil springs, Posie rear springs with a new John's narrowed 9' rear. The car was 4' off of the ground at the middle of the rocker panel, sat nice and low, looked great, but drug on every thing. Fat man offered three springs, light, med, and heavy. I have an LS1 aluminum motor, so I went with the med springs, they seem too soft, nearly coil bound, so we are going with the heavy, which are what Fatman calls big block springs. It would be much better if they rated their springs by pounds. The car is bottoming out on the rubber stops and the tires are rubbing a little when turned all of the way, so we are going to stiffer shocks and 2' lowering blocks instead of 3'.

It is difficult to get a fairly decent ride with a real low ride height. When you decrease the travel you decrease the ride, it is a compromise.

The Fatman assembly goes in easy, looks nice, but will have to be tweaked to get the ride and stance that you want. I believe I would try a 4 bar on the rear suspension if I were doing it again, it would give you more adjustability. I had air bags on my last ride and they were OK but, I always was a little afraid of having problems on the road and having the car down without the parts to fix it. This has been my experience soo far, I hope it helps a little. Barry

rambos_ride

barry wrote:

I drove my 48 coupe last weekend for the first time. It has a fatman with coil springs, Posie rear springs with a new John's narrowed 9' rear. The car was 4' off of the ground at the middle of the rocker panel, sat nice and low, looked great, but drug on every thing. Fat man offered three springs, light, med, and heavy. I have an LS1 aluminum motor, so I went with the med springs, they seem too soft, nearly coil bound, so we are going with the heavy, which are what Fatman calls big block springs. It would be much better if they rated their springs by pounds. The car is bottoming out on the rubber stops and the tires are rubbing a little when turned all of the way, so we are going to stiffer shocks and 2' lowering blocks instead of 3'.
It is difficult to get a fairly decent ride with a real low ride height. When you decrease the travel you decrease the ride, it is a compromise.
The Fatman assembly goes in easy, looks nice, but will have to be tweaked to get the ride and stance that you want. I believe I would try a 4 bar on the rear suspension if I were doing it again, it would give you more adjustability. I had air bags on my last ride and they were OK but, I always was a little afraid of having problems on the road and having the car down without the parts to fix it. This has been my experience soo far, I hope it helps a little. Barry

Do you still used the splayed mounted style rear leaf springs? I was just wondering because you said you had a 3" block and were moving to a 2" and I was planning on dropping mine with a 2" as well.

Did you have to modify the panhard bar with the 3" drop?

Unknown

Dan, yes we used the stock spring perches and hangers with Poises rear springs. Those springs are a good deal softer than the stock springs, with the softer springs, you do need stiffer shocks. We will probably show about 3' of wheel with the 2' lowering blocks.

We used an after market panhard so that we could adjust it with the changes in ride height. Barry

rambos_ride

barry wrote:

Dan, yes we used the stock spring perches and hangers with Poises rear springs. Those springs are a good deal softer than the stock springs, with the softer springs, you do need stiffer shocks. We will probably show about 3' of wheel with the 2' lowering blocks.
We used an after market panhard so that we could adjust it with the changes in ride height. Barry

I didn't know anyone made an aftermarket panhard bar - where did you get yours?

mrsbojigger

Hi Barry,
How about a side view photo of the ride height of your car.
Peace,
Chaz

Unknown

israil, Chaez would like a side view of my car, if you still have the pics, would you post for me. I cannot manage the posting of pics. Thanks Barry

nick s

commodore8 wrote:

Hello everyone. I am beginning my street rod conversion of a 49 two door commodore.



We are going to put in a subframe, driveline, rearend, brakes, etc.

Going to try some trick stuff, like power hood lift, trunk lift.

This is a great forum, I have learned alot from you all.

Any ideas on what front end I shoud try I would appreciate it.

obviously you didn't post the questions to hear "keep it all hudson" but

why not go with the suspension parts that bolt right in. if you have never driven a stepdown, i encorage you to do so. afterall it was handling that won all those races in the 50's not horsepower (though it didn't hurt). if your concerns are brakes - disc conversions are available. power steering could be worked in.

learn from the other responders - there are obvious issues with the replacements, not that i know anything about them, i don't see anyone providing info on that perfect subframe that will make it handle like a new vette. from a risk/reward approach i don't see the advantage of swapping the subframe. what will the cost and effort gain you. unlike chevy's and fords there just isn't the call to devote the r&d to develop that perfect subframe. before you go through that effort, ask yourself if its really worth it.



i think you will find a very small number of people with experience swapping subframes on stepdowns but find those people and learn from them. talk to those who've gone the v8 route and stock suspension. but talk to those who've been there who know the issues.



even with your planned mods why not keep that attention getting straight 8 under the hood?

[Deleted User]

I want to know why no ones built dropped spindles for them? Some us want our cars to sit really low and I don't see how you're going to do that with a stock suspension, chopping off coil rounds has never been a good idea to me (at least never more than one round). And the centerpoint steering makes some engine swaps kind of harry (I know Dan found a way to work his BBC, but its not the only type of swap). What worked in 1954, is not the only good ride out there. If it was "the cats meow" rodders would be using them in record numbers and companies would still be using it on today's cars. Rodders want performance, reliability, ease of parts locating, etc. There are many MII's out there under all kinds of rods, if they were terrible, people wouldn't be using them.

Bottom line is, how are you going to drive this car? This will tell you what you want. There are plenty of guys here that have done a number of modifieds, Dan's is coming along, Barry's got a sweet ride (I'm sooo jealous, dude), etc., etc. Don't feel pressured to go one way or another, you're the one who has to enjoy it.

Chaz, here's a couple of those recent pics of Barry's Coupe. Hope its enough for you to see the stance. Barry, my compliments on one fine ride!

http://forum.olskoolrodz.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=11889&cat=500

http://forum.olskoolrodz.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=11890&cat=500

http://forum.olskoolrodz.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=11891&cat=500

Tried to post the pics, but it brought up some odd pic I didn't put there.

Hope that helps, I'm going to bed now...goodnight all.

Unknown

Looks like FAT MAN to me. I will keep everyone informed on the progress.

Thanks to everyone, again!:

nick s

jsrail wrote:

I want to know why no ones built dropped spindles for them? Some us want our cars to sit really low and I don't see how you're going to do that with a stock suspension, chopping off coil rounds has never been a good idea to me (at least never more than one round). And the centerpoint steering makes some engine swaps kind of harry (I know Dan found a way to work his BBC, but its not the only type of swap). What worked in 1954, is not the only good ride out there. If it was "the cats meow" rodders would be using them in record numbers and companies would still be using it on today's cars. Rodders want performance, reliability, ease of parts locating, etc. There are many MII's out there under all kinds of rods, if they were terrible, people wouldn't be using them.



Bottom line is, how are you going to drive this car? This will tell you what you want. There are plenty of guys here that have done a number of modifieds, Dan's is coming along, Barry's got a sweet ride (I'm sooo jealous, dude), etc., etc. Don't feel pressured to go one way or another, you're the one who has to enjoy it.absolutely

sorry jay, not trying to attack the mighty MII;) , just making a point that applying it or others to a stepdown is lightly treaded ground. I was actually approaching the querry objectively as an engineer rather than as a purist. the engine coment at the end goes to i believe in a rod have indivuality, the ones with a flathead ford or a slant six always catch attention sure they might not turn 8 sec in the 1/4, but how many of the cars that could actually ever do. ohv v8's look alike sure the builders recognize the differences but i am talking the average joe off the street. that odd engine will grab attention just like the stepdown body grabs it in a crowd of ford's and chevy's its different. To truely get the set-up that is the cats meow as you say, it will take alot of experimenting by people like yourself to develop it and dial it in. As an engineer i can appreciate those efforts, but i also know the stock suspension (and if it doesn't meow, it at least has a pretty nice purr for an old cat) should handle the average owners needs. The moral of my post was to find those people like yourself, learn from their experiences (concerns, problems, successes) and build on them.



why don't they build drop spindles? easy - someone like yourself that sees a need hasn't developed them. of course a few years ago someone was asking why doesn't anyone make a disc brake conversion? k-gap was started by a couple guys who saw the need for some repro rubber parts. remember the average stepdown owner isn't worried about drop spindles or which springs work best with a camaro subframe and a 460 ford (though the crowd that does is growing)



as far as engines, the parts (and creativity) are out there to make em all fit. perhaps it takes parts from 3 decades of the small block to find the right combination but i would think that finding just the right part to fit your puzzle would be some of the fun and challenge of building the car. I've seen small block chevy's big block chevy's and 427 fords stuck in without changing the subframe. The 427 ford wasn't just an engine swap restro rod. the car was chopped 4" and tubbed in the rear with about 16" wide tires (not sure you didn't have to drop the rear end to change a tire). at the time i saw it, he was working out the header configuration That goes back to evaluating your needs and desires. if the MII is what it takes so you feel confident to drive and enjoy your car - do it. with a car approaching 100,000 miles (25,000 myself) those stock components (whether driveline or suspension) haven't left me stranded on the side of the road. though my modern vehicles and the fancy electronics have, (not to imply that a computer controlled EFI and electronic ignition when functioning properly isn't a more efficient set-up compared to points and carbs but if you needed to, which would you rather troubleshoot on the side of the road.)

[Deleted User]

Nick when I saw Jay's comments about the use of center point on rods and if was so good why isn't it still around I put his comments down to frustration. You will get that type of response to rodding questions when 98% of the contributors here being keep it Hudson all the way. You kind of feel beat up after a bit.

Guys love to rod and guys love to keep em stock and on both sides of the story each group calls the other dinosuars and tunnel visionists. Me I am on both sides I have rodded and I have stocked never saw a problem with either.

I know Jay understands that Hudsons have pretty darn nice suspensions I know I drove one across Canada and it never let me down and provided some fun thrills in the curves. The reason a suspension like you find on a Hudson is not available and why car companies now don't use them comes down to one simple law and thats cost. Rack and pinion is cheap to produce and works fine. The reason so many front ends are based on MII's is there were millions of Mustangs to hack them off. When I did this in my dad's shop we actually cut the front ends off of real mustangs to make rods. Nowdays you can order the complete setup from many companies.

I think everyone is making good points and we don't really need any sniping to backup the points either. I like to listen to both sides as it seems to me a ton of work is going on both sides.

My big problem as Dave will tell you is I am a Saint;) and I wish we could all just get along.

[Deleted User]

nick s, sorry if I sounded harsh, just a reaction to what I perceive as always a nasty attack on hot rodders by some. My health is not the greatest right now and with a fair amount of pain, I guess I blew my top a bit. My apologies to all for that, it is not neccesary.

I understand that many have this opinion that Hudsons are the best of any car and their engineering cannot be topped, though I would argue that they are not around anymore and the automotive world has come a long way. We should all enjoy them for what "we individually like about them", not what others like about them. I bought a Hud strictly because I liked the body style. Doesn't mean I don't think I can't improve it more to my liking. And actually, I find that flatheads are as boring as the SBC. If purists had their way, all Huds would have flatheads, how boring is that (oh, do you have one air cleaner or two?). There are those of us who choose modern drivetrains becaue they suit our needs the best. I hear some say that parts are readily avaible and they perform well. My argument to that is that I don't want to have to rely on calling HET members to find a part I need broke down in some obscure place, I need it now. I need a car with good mileage. Not everyone can afford some of the non-SBC set-ups that are more expensive than the Chevy's. Not everyone wants a go-fast aspirated motor either. Does that mean I'm not allowed to have a Hud because one doesn't dare change them (or improve them in some eyes)? My car will be a daily driver and I'm not going to wait around trying to locate some obscure part. A modern drivetrain means I can find parts anywhere, anytime. Now some absolutely hate the SBC. So be it. But some of us get tired of hearing the same old lame crap about them. They cannot offer any technical reason for not using a SBC, just the same old rant. I can offer technical reasons for not using a flathead (i.e. parts availability, mileage, difficulty of finding repair shops, etc.).

My point is that you do not hear rodders always bashing purists for their views, but we constantly have to put up with it from the non-rodders. And believe me, I know some great guys here that accept everyone without the bashing crap. Some speak up, others do not though. I for one have a rather large piehole and am quick to defend those I believe deserve it. I'd be proud to park my rod alongside a resto'd car at any meet (and offer them a beer or soda), but to be honest, I'm not sure I'd be as welcome parking next to many club members. I always thought a brand-specific club should be inclusive to all, but it appears to me not the case on this forum at least. Those of you who are inclusive know who you are and understand that I do not refer to you. I honestly feel extremely sorry for the way the 55-57 and the Jet group get treated. You'd think they all bought SBC's or had a bad case of a STD!

My HET membership is up next month and to be honest, I'm not sure whether I will renew or not. I do not need any original parts, as my car is totally complete, and in fact will probably have parts to sell. But I only give parts away to my friends and I count some of you here as my friends.

And some reaction is our group's fault, as I see many times guys post rodding questions to this forum instead of the rod forum. But that doesn't mean we should be treated with derision as I believe we many times are. And only a few of us ever stand up for ourselves. Some joking is fine when done in good spirits and so stated, but most of the bashing I read is pure meanness. Some of the purists have much in common with some in the Rat Rod crowd, who also don't like anything that does not fit into the box of their own ideas. Can you picture the pot bellied, bearded ol' codger with the pristine Hornet sedan next to the beer bellied, goatee'd, and tattooed kid with the Rat Rod 32' Coupe? lol They have much more in common than they would think. (I have nothing against big belly's, tattoo's, or facial hair, just making a point)

Hopefully, this explains the rodders take once and for all.

Jay :-)

[Deleted User]

51hornetA wrote:

Nick when I saw Jay's comments about the use of center point on rods and if was so good why isn't it still around I put his comments down to frustration. You will get that type of response to rodding questions when 98% of the contributors here being keep it Hudson all the way. You kind of feel beat up after a bit.

Guys love to rod and guys love to keep em stock and on both sides of the story each group calls the other dinosuars and tunnel visionists. Me I am on both sides I have rodded and I have stocked never saw a problem with either.

I know Jay understands that Hudsons have pretty darn nice suspensions I know I drove one across Canada and it never let me down and provided some fun thrills in the curves. The reason a suspension like you find on a Hudson is not available and why car companies now don't use them comes down to one simple law and thats cost. Rack and pinion is cheap to produce and works fine. The reason so many front ends are based on MII's is there were millions of Mustangs to hack them off. When I did this in my dad's shop we actually cut the front ends off of real mustangs to make rods. Nowdays you can order the complete setup from many companies.

I think everyone is making good points and we don't really need any sniping to backup the points either. I like to listen to both sides as it seems to me a ton of work is going on both sides.

My big problem as Dave will tell you is I am a Saint;) and I wish we could all just get along.

I do try and apologize if my comments are not exactly appropriate. Passion tends to make you let out some "not so endearing" remarks. And I'm glad to know a "Saint." lol (good one dude!)

hudsonguy

jsrail wrote:

My HET membership is up next month and to be honest, I'm not sure whether I will renew or not. I do not need any original parts, as my car is totally complete, and in fact will probably have parts to sell. But I only give parts away to my friends and I count some of you here as my friends.



And some reaction is our group's fault, as I see many times guys post rodding questions to this forum instead of the rod forum. But that doesn't mean we should be treated with derision as I believe we many times are. And only a few of us ever stand up for ourselves. Some joking is fine when done in good spirits and so stated, but most of the bashing I read is pure meanness. Some of the purists have much in common with some in the Rat Rod crowd, who also don't like anything that does not fit into the box of their own ideas.



Jay :-)

Jay,



Most if not all of the derision/bashing/dissing happens on this forum....not in the HET Club.



Have you ever been to a National event? This year's meet had numerous modified Hudsons alongside stock Hudsons, and you couldn't sense the slightest bit of tension between anyone. Everyone either enjoyed someone else's car, or maybe didn't really notice it. I can't even imagine at such an event there could be any 'bashing' of sorts between these two groups of people.



You could see young 'rat rodders' with their SBC cars getting tips from some of the HET elder statesman about steering modifications, etc. You could see the bright yellow Stud Hud pickup (with a 425 ci Cadillac engine) drawing huge crowds. There was also a beautiful red pickup with a 396 Chevy engine, that was quite a crowd pleaser. Popular with even the old 'died in the wool' Hudson guys. There was a drag Jet there. Dany Spring had his '40 dragster there. It was no different than a Street Rod Nationals meet in that whenever someone would rev up a powerful engine, or chirp some tires, everyone would cheer! I honestly believe everyone there was given and received their due respect.



The one thing everyone had in common was that they were having FUN!



I guess my point is that this forum is in no way connected to the HET Club.

[Deleted User]

hudsonguy wrote:

Jay,

Most if not all of the derision/bashing/dissing happens on this forum....not in the HET Club.

Have you ever been to a National event? This year's meet had numerous modified Hudsons alongside stock Hudsons, and you couldn't sense the slightest bit of tension between anyone. Everyone either enjoyed someone else's car, or maybe didn't really notice it. I can't even imagine at such an event there could be any 'bashing' of sorts between these two groups of people.

You could see young 'rat rodders' with their SBC cars getting tips from some of the HET elder statesman about steering modifications, etc. You could see the bright yellow Stud Hud pickup (with a 425 ci Cadillac engine) drawing huge crowds. There was also a beautiful red pickup with a 396 Chevy engine, that was quite a crowd pleaser. Popular with even the old 'died in the wool' Hudson guys. There was a drag Jet there. Dany Spring had his '40 dragster there. It was no different than a Street Rod Nationals meet in that whenever someone would rev up a powerful engine, or chirp some tires, everyone would cheer! I honestly believe everyone there was given and received their due respect.

The one thing everyone had in common was that they were having FUN!

I guess my point is that this forum is in no way connected to the HET Club.

Point well taken hudsonguy, I appreciate that, and hopefully, I will get to make one of the nationals (sometime before they bury me! lol) to so it first hand. Thanks again. Sometimes I forget the two are not the same, apology given.

Just a side note, again I went to 2 cruisins last Saturday here (on opposite ends of the valley), and again, no Hudsons. **shakes head**

hudsonguy

jsrail wrote:

Point well taken hudsonguy, I appreciate that, and hopefully, I will get to make one of the nationals (sometime before they bury me! lol) to so it first hand. Thanks again. Sometimes I forget the two are not the same, apology given.



Just a side note, again I went to 2 cruisins last Saturday here (on opposite ends of the valley), and again, no Hudsons. **shakes head**

I know what you mean. I have the same frustration. I personally drive my Hudson anywhere at just about any time (I drove it to work today, because my wife is using my Brand X). I took a 5000 mile road trip this month to the west coast, and then back thru Nebraska for the Nat's. The only Hudsons I saw on the road were on trailers! (trailers are for boats!)(or Harleys going to Sturgis!)