Synthetic oil

RonS

Has any one had any experience using Mobil 1.There is an interesting article in the VMCCA Bulb Horn explaining some benefits of Syn oil .Cooler oil temp as well as starts and so on ,However, I heard that oil leaks appear where none existed before .Any thought?Ron

BigSky

It is truely a great motor oil.....Mobil 1. Really any synthetic for that matter. They will give Cooler running oil temps, superior film strength and withstand the high heat without breakdown. You can easily run these 7500 miles without problems. Just note, these are all real benefits for the modern engine.



I have experienced some leaks in my vette more than the conventional it came with but this is because 1) it gets places the other oil never did (good places and not so good places) and 2) it seems to clean better, thus opening up possible leaks. I have been wondering what benefit there may be in my old straight 8, but havent explored it. The one thing for sure is in HOT ROD magazine, they are claiming a lot of hydrolic cam failures are due to oil changes in the last few years. Now they are using Rotella, because in their research its the only oil which protects the lifter and cam properly. (I dont know if they evaluated the synthetic or not.



I hope you get some good thoughts on this thread, especially the idea of using it in an old hudson!

RL Chilton

RonS wrote:

Has any one had any experience using Mobil 1.There is an interesting article in the VMCCA Bulb Horn explaining some benefits of Syn oil .Cooler oil temp as well as starts and so on ,However, I heard that oil leaks appear where none existed before .Any thought?Ron

This is something I've been interested in, also. It is my understanding that new or re-built Hudson engines absolutely require a NON-Detergent oil. Do synthetics have detergents in them? If so, they probably are not good candidates. If not, I don't see any other reason they could not be used. I'm sure you'll get some good responses in this thread.

Unknown

Ron,

This is a subject that is debated only slightly less than the restore-versus-modify issue. However I have done some research on the exact question you are asking, and I will offer what insight I have, for what it's worth.



As a general rule, synthetic oils are better than conventional oils, when compared side-by-side on a number of criteria. However there are exceptions to this. Sometimes there are really good conventional oils out there that exceed the quality of some of the lesser synthetics. For instance, there are some conventional racing/high-performance oils out there that are better products than some of the typical, cheaper synthetics. As far as synthetics go, you mention Mobil 1. Mobil 1 is a good product, and is the synthetic preferred by the major names in the automotive industry-- Porsche, Dodge Viper, Corvette, BMW, and others. Amsoil is also supposed to be a good product, and the technical data I've read on it looks good. I have known people running it in modern cars with 25,000 mile oil change intervals. First of all, I don't care what kind of oil it is, I do better maintenance than that. And secondly, the last few bottles of Amsoil I saw had Porsche misspelled on the label. Number one, as a Porsche owner I am offended, and number two, I'm not buying oil from a company that can't spell, I don't care how good their product is.



A lot of technical data on motor oils is available on manufacturer's websites. You can get a lot of specs, such as % ash, % zinc, viscosity at specific temperatures, viscosity index (defined as the change in viscosity over a given temperature range), and more.



I use Mobil 1 in my modern vehicles. In my 1997 F150 with 140K miles I use it (10W30) and I change it when it gets down to the add mark, or dirty looking. That usually takes about 6,000 miles. I use it in my old farm trucks, that stop and start a lot. I have used it in warm-running engines and seen a 10 degree water temperature reduction (notably in a "Z" car). But my Hudson is a splasher engine, and I don't use it in it. I also don't use it in Model As I fool with. This is for a number of reasons. First of all, there is some data that suggests that synthetic oils are too slippery for splash feed environments, and tend to run-off metal parts more than a comparable conventional oil. I am not saying I believe that wholeheartedly, but it is something to consider. I have read some data on this with automotive engines, but one recent article in particular comes to mind that discussed auto air conditioning compressors. AC compressors are splash oilers, and there was a series of tests done with old fashioned mineral oil versus the synthetic PAG and Ester oils. The compressors just plain lived longer on mineral oil. One researcher made the assertion that mineral oil was better for splash-feed environments. Now, once again, don't take this for more than its worth and extrapolate it 100% to the auto piston engine environment. But it is information to consider. Secondly, my 29 Hudson takes nearly 10 quarts of oil if you pull the pan. With Mobil 1 at 6 dollars a quart, that's 60 bucks worth of oil. There is no filter, so it has to get changed often. I ran Mobil 1 15W-50 in it for a couple of changes, and then I decided it just wasn't worth it. The previous owner ran Castrol 20W-50 in it for 25 years with no problems. I have been running Valvoline VR-1 20W-50 in it for the past few changes. This is a racing oil. It has some friction modifiers and anti-foamers in it, and a high zinc content, which helps cushion between metal parts. I figured that the anti-foamers would probably be beneficial due to the windage of a splasher engine. I've been using it for a while in Model As and had no problems with it, and it's about $2.30 a quart.



If I had a Hudson with an oil filter, it would probably be a toss-up. Synthetics typically aren't as prone to viscosity breakdown, which is beneficial for a lot of driving or a lot of stops and starts. But it's not going to stay any cleaner than conventional, and if you don't drive that often you still need to change it as moisture and crankcase acids build up. It would probably depend on how much I drove the car. With a filter, and if I was making some long road trips, I'd pour some synthetic in there and see what happened.



As far as creating new leaks, that would probably have more to do with using an oil with a high detergent content than conventional versus synthetic. They all contain detergents, and various amounts of it. In rare occasions these detergents may be able to dissolve some of the crud in the engine that is preventing it from leaking somewhere. In that case, you need to be changing some gaskets and cleaning the funk out of that motor anyway! This leads us into another question, which is detergent versus non detergent oil. My advice is detergent. Some people will tell you that the detergents will break up buildup in the engine and wreck havoc. That is simply not true. Any crud loosening would take place over a long period of time, and you're not going to have stuff coming off in chunks. Again, this goes to the ultimate question, if you're worried about breaking loose deposits in there, maybe you need to pull the pan and clean things out anyway. A detergent oil will keep the engine cleaner with less sludge buildup and that's what you want. Non-detergent oil is ancient technology, and as Geoff Clark said once, the worst thing you can do for an old motor is put old oil in it. (Thanks Geoff.) One of the reasons engines like my '29 are still going strong is oils are so much better nowadays than they were then. Also, if you are running an engine with hydraulic lifters, detergent oil is a MUST.



Hope this helps. Feel free to ask any questions.



Best Regards,

Unknown

Russell,

I would have addressed your comment in my previous posting but I didn't see it. At the risk of sounding forceful, forget running non-detergent oil in a rebuilt engine. It is an old wive's tale. In fact, if you go to Auto Zone and pick up a bottle of Coastal 30W Non-Detergent, it will plainly state "Not intended for use in new or newly rebuilt engines". I used Non Detergent my first few engine rebuilds years ago. Now I just use cheap 30W motor oil for break in and that's it. If you are putting your engine together with an assembly lube, you need a detergent oil to wash that stuff out. If the inside of a rebuilt engine is absolutely spotless, which they never are, then the detergents will have nothing in there to clean, yes. But having them in there won't hurt anything, either, and it will probably prevent corrosion.



Best Regards,

Unknown

Husker Nation wrote:

The one thing for sure is in HOT ROD magazine, they are claiming a lot of hydrolic cam failures are due to oil changes in the last few years. Now they are using Rotella, because in their research its the only oil which protects the lifter and cam properly. (I dont know if they evaluated the synthetic or not.

Brian,

I saw the exact information you are speaking of. I don't know if they are using the Rotella 30W, or the 15W-40. I think the 15W-40. I have been using the 30W Rotella in farm equipment for years and used it in all my farm trucks before I went to synthetic in them. I've always liked it, and it's cheap. Supposed to be a good oil. Hydraulic camshafts have had a number of problems in recent years. This is something my machinist and I were talking about not long ago. Because of this I have a ritual I go through with engine building-- on new or reground carburized camshafts, a couple of weeks before final assembly, I coat the entire camshaft in red assembly lube, and massage it into the lobes by hand. Then I wrap the thing in Saran wrap and let it sit for a few days, then come back and do it again. Then repeat. After 3 or 4 applications and a couple of weeks worth of sitting, half a bottle of lube will be absorbed into that cam. I also sit lifters in it in a tupperware container and let them soak a couple of days. Seems to make things live longer.



Perhaps Oldsmobile had something right with their oil-in-the-lifter-bores first oiling system. Would probably make a camshaft live longer, although possibly at the expense of the bottom end. But, grandpa doesn't like hydraulic lifter noise in the morning!



Best Regards,

[Deleted User]

Yup, the story of not using detergent oil in old engines is truly the old wives tale that just will not go away. Its absolute bunk. I use modern quaker State detergent oil in my Hudson have so for 3 years ran it in my 70 Buick from day one. When I pulled the pan on my Hudson inside of engine was pristine same with the Buick.

New oils are light years ahead of the stuff that was available in the 30-50's in fact a lot of early wear and need for rebuilds was because the oil available was so poor.

We actually had this exact discussion last year. It comes up every year or so. I think these stories come from the I have been doing so and so for 30 years and this and that happened. I grew up in an engine rebuild shop and we ran a lot of engines on new oils never had a problem.

kamzack

RonS wrote:

Has any one had any experience using Mobil 1.There is an interesting article in the VMCCA Bulb Horn explaining some benefits of Syn oil .Cooler oil temp as well as starts and so on ,However, I heard that oil leaks appear where none existed before .Any thought?Ron

I'd encourage all who have an interest or are contemplating the syn oils to have a look at this website www.le-inc.com.

They completely address your question about mineral and pao/syn.oils.

There's no point in my giving another opinion,so I encourage all to take a look the technical info available for free. It is thorough and easy to understand. Thanks for letting me share.

Kim

Geoff

I have covered this point before, but mention it again - I have not seen any specific specifications for synthetic oils as to their suitability for splash fed engines, and until I can get some sort of assurance I would rather not take chances. All Hudson splash fed engines require a free-running oil that will run uphill (yes I know it sounds like an oxymoron) and freely flow through narrow passages with only gravity pressure. A lot of modern oils have been specifically made "Stickier" to prevent being flung off cam lobes on modern o.h.c. engines. This is the last thing we want in our old engines. Such things as surface tension, which would affect the ability of oil to flow back after the dipper has run through it at high speed need to be considered. That is why the old adage of "put good thick oil in an old engine" is anathema to a Hudson. I have been using a multigrade mineral detergent oil 20W-50 in all my cars for many years, and will continue to do so until I can be assured of the safety and suitability of synthetics in splashers. I'm not prepared to be the guinea pig. And I back up James' comments on detergent oils, like contraceptives, they should be used on every conceivable occasion.

Geoff.

kamzack

I will also share with all concerned that LE engine oil in the viscosity redomended for Hudson type engines has the proper amount of zinc, also is the most thermally stable E O, highest shear factor and lowest pour point. The flow ability and lubricity is unmatched and is very compatible with gasket materials. It also does not harded gaskets as a result high heat, has the ability to make small leaks of big leaks and little leaks go away. I don't have an interest in promotin the product, but have used it for 15 years with exdellent results and they will ship it to you door.

Thanks for letting me share.

Kim

SamJ

The benefits of synthetics like Mobil 1...better lubrication for high-revving, high compression, overhead cam engines + (maybe) longer life (which is why it's used in racing) don't seem to me to apply to splasher engines. But I don't believe if you start using it after going through the engine completely it will do any harm.



The keys with splashers are:

• As Geoff says, free flowing oil, which means light (some people use 5W-20 or 10W 30) and NO additives like STP.
  
  
  
• Since you don't change all the oil when you change it, change it often.
  
  
  
• Change ALL the oil by dropping the pan, cleaning it out and reassembling it every 4-5000 miles, or oftener.
  
  
  
• If you buy a splasher, the first thing you should do before you drive it anywhere (no matter how good its running) is drop the pan and start fresh. Of course you can check the bearings and seals while you're under there. While you're at it, (as has been indicated earlier on this forum), change your clutch fluid and grease the throwout bearing.
  

There is an article describing this "deep maintenance" for splashers in the July/August 2005 issue of WTN, by one of my favorite authors.

RonS

thanks for your input guys.I have a '53 308 with about4000miles on it.It has a fram filter.I use 10-40 detergent oil and change it 1000-1500miles depending on the time of year(it's hot in Arizona) and lube it at 1500miles.I have never had a problem with leaks. Funny that you mentioned a Model A,I have a '31 and the concensus is 20w-50 is the best to use in the Az. heat,not to mention the crummy oil leaks in them(need to pull bearing shims periodically).I agree that the cost of SYN oils is not worth it,normally since the life of the oil is far longer that the need to change it due to contamination. Ron

Unknown

Ron,

Are you using a spin-on type filter? If so, then you may want to stay away from the Fram filters. I recently read a test done on a number of different oil filters that compared them on various construction attributes, such as square inches of filter media, drainback valve construction, backplate seal, and otherwise generally more stuff than you'd ever want to know about oil filters. The conclusion was to stay away from Fram stuff. This claim was substantiated by an article written by a former Fram engineer, who said that quality control at Fram varied so widely that the heat curing of the adhesives used in making the filters varied from "not warm enough to make a seal to visibly burnt". He also said that frequently the bypass valves are incorrectly assembled, causing the filters to bypass after only a few minutes of operation. The conclusion of the study I read was that Purolator (they invented the oil filter), WIX (Napa filters are WIX, and there's no difference between the Silver and Gold versions as far as the researcher could tell), and K&N were the best out there. Champion labs also makes a pretty good filter, which is marketed as Bosch, STP, and the Super Tech (cheap) filters you buy at Wal-mart.



I'll try to find the information and post it here.



Best Regards,

Unknown

Here it is:



http://people.msoe.edu/~yoderw/oilfilterstudy/oilfilterstudy.html



under the Fram section, see the hyperlink that says "see this e-mail from an AlliedSignal production engineer".



Best Regards,

Unknown

Hmm, it appears that the e-mail has been removed from the page. Wonder if someone got upset? Scandalous. Well, I can assure you that it existed once, and I read it.



Best Regards,

RonS

James, I have the original add on filter that came with the cars in'53.accually the replacement cartridge is a Wix.

mars55

jamcoats wrote:

Hmm, it appears that the e-mail has been removed from the page. Wonder if someone got upset? Scandalous. Well, I can assure you that it existed once, and I read it.



Best Regards,

It is hard to remove things from the Internet. Here is that letter.



Russell,

I obtained great satisfaction from reading your oil filter survey.



I worked for two years as the oil-filter production line engineer in

an Allied-Signal FRAM facility and I can confirm every bad thing you

have said about FRAM automotive filters. That's from the horse's

mouth, as it were.



I'm also a quality engineer and can confirm that FRAM applies no

quality control whatsoever to any of the characteristics for which we

buy oil filters. I frequently saw filter designs which were barely

capable of meeting J806. Many of FRAM's designs will block and go to

bypass after trying to filter very little contamination. There were

often leakage paths at the paper end discs when these were not

properly centered on the elements. Some designs had the pleats so

tightly packed against the center tube that they would block off in no

time. I had discovered that the FRAM HP1 that I had been buying for

about $20 Cdn was EXACTLY the same as a PH8 inside - the only

difference being a heavier can - no advantages in flow capacity. The

paper filtration media was of apparently poor quality and the process

of curing the paper resin was very inconsistent - elements would range

from visibly burnt to white. FRAM's marketers admitted that there was

just about no way the public could ever prove that an oil filter

contributed, or did not prevent, engine damage. The only thing FRAM

tested for was can burst strength. Another problem that they have from

time to time is in threading the filter base - often there are strands

of metal left behind on a poorly formed thread.



I have not used a FRAM filter since I started working there. Their

claims are entirely and completely marketing bull****.



If people really want to protect their engines, a good air filter is

vital (which excludes FRAM from that list as well) and a combination

of one depth and one full-flow hydraulic filter, together in parallel,

will do the job of filtration to perfection.



Thanks for doing a great job in trying to get the truth out! You can

quote me anytime.



[name omitted to protect submitter]

Unknown

Could this just be the work of an unhappy employee? Any idea who makes Delco or Motorcraft filters? Is Wix brand an acceptable filter?

7XPacemaker

Another thing that I recently read in one of my AMC publications is that Wal Mart was pushing Fram to make their filters even cheaper. In an effort to do so, the cardboard was supposedly made much thinner and the tend to collapse on themselves, thus starving the engine for oil and burning the engine up. According to the publication, this has already retired several high performance AMC engines prematurely. Readers of this can take this for whatever it is worth to them. Personally, I will err on the side of caution and not buy Fram anymore.

mars55

Dave53-7C wrote:

Could this just be the work of an unhappy employee? Any idea who makes Delco or Motorcraft filters? Is Wix brand an acceptable filter?

The study refered to by Mr Coats has this information.

Unknown

Thank you mars55; Yes, Delco, Motorcraft, and WIX filters are all acceptable. Motorcraft in particular-- they seem to be Purolator Pure One elements inside of Purolator Premium Plus cartridges. I have always liked Purolator stuff as they invented the oil filter and retain pretty good quality, so I am in the habit of using Motorcraft filters - you basically get a Purolator Pure One at a lesser price. The NAPA filters, both Silver and Gold, are WIX filters, and of the filters mentioned in this study as well as the ones I've cut open myself, I can find no difference between the silver and gold except for price. ACDelco I believe is a Champion Labs filter and it is a pretty good filter.



Just stay away from Frams, especially the orange ones!