A sad time in the US auto industry?

RonS

I was out of town for a couple of weeks ,and just got home.I was going back through some past threads and read the responses of some members to the sad condition of the US auto makers.I sense a real critisism of the American worker by many of those responses. This saddens me,because alot of folks in this hobby are getting up in years. Maybe they are getting a bit bitter or more likely, frustrated.However don't blame the worker.These same workers are assembling Toyota and Hondas here in the states.Benefits were added to employee contracts in lieu of cash, with a goal of retaining a good workforce.One of the major reasons that US corporations are unable to keep up is due to our political decisions of refusing to offer universal health coverage to all of its' citizens.Today I believe that GM ,for example,pays in excess of $2000 per employee for health coverage.Every other civilized nation on Earth covers that cost out of tax revenue.Japan is no differant.The Japanese make a fine product,but so do we.But, Toyota does not need to face the burden of health insurance for their workers.That's a $2000 advantage,about the profit margin of mid-priced car.In 1950 Chevy made about $200 profit on a $2000 car,Studebaker $50 And Studebaker never took a strike. It is always managements errors that cause corporate failures.Or in the words of Captain Queeg(Caine Mutiny) I'm surrounded by disloyal officers, would be the copout of every bad decision.I see the only way to remain competitive in the world, is to take off the medical INS. burden from the companies and offer it to all citizens including the 45 million now with none at all.

[Deleted User]

No, the problem is people using their insurance for every little ache and pain, sniffle, and cute, instead of only when they need it (i.e. major surgery, accidents, and catastrophic illness).



Draw this analogy - Let's say you buy a new car. You take it in for routine work (oil change, alignment, new tires and/or brakes, etc.). You expect your AUTO insurance to pay the bill! Would that not drive the cost of auto insurance even higher than it is now? Of course it would! Because, auto insurance would be expected to take care of routine maintenance, which it is NOT designed to do!



Yet, we expect this very thing to occur when it comes to our own bodies! It should go back to the way it used to be...you got sick, you went to the doc, you paid the bill. Extreme circumstances/emergencies were the exception. You still paid for minor surgeries, childbirth, drugs, and guess what? People could actually AFFORD to see a doctor!



Universal health care is NOT the answer.

dwardo99

66Patrick has it exactly right. Government health care would be a disaster, or maybe it WILL be a disaster, as it's probably inevitable. The problem isn't too little insurance, it's too much insurance. Having insurance that covers everything removes our incentive to conserve scarce medical resources -- the more insurance, the more use of the resource because "somebody else pays". Socialized medicine might be great in the beginning (probably just wonderful for people of our age range) but eventually it would be strictly rationed by the government based on their priorities - not ours. Having said that, the problem that our corporations have competing with foreign corporations who are heavily subsidized by taxpayers is a real one. In principal, I'm a free marketer but I'd like to see a tariff on forieign goods equal to the subsidy. Naturally, expecting a government agency to calculate such a thing fairly and without political interference would be an impossibility so I don't know what is to be done. Rant mode off.

Unknown

If health insurance provided by an employer is viewed as part of a worker's compensation package, why shouldn't they benefit from what they've earned or are contributing to? As far as todays insurance is concerned, many policies allow for "wellness" care. Nothing wrong with keeping people healthy since doing so is more cost effective in the long run. As far as cars are concerned, several manufacturers are doing the same and covering routine maintenance. Since someone (like the worker or vehicle owner in this case) is paying for these benefits anyway, they'd be stupid not to use them.

Nevada Hudson

Canada has socialized medicine, a lot of big 3 cars are built there.

[Deleted User]

Canada, I believe has Socialized Medical, and it sounds great, but if it is so great why do so many Canadians cross the border for medical care in the US? Maybe it is because they have to wait so long for anything other than wellness care. Elective, or minor surgery can be delayed for years, or denied altogether.
Why do people come from around the world to recieve treatment in the US?
There is nothing wrong with wellness care. What is WRONG is people that abuse health care insurance, by going to the hospital emergency room with a cold, or a stubbed toe. A visit to the ER usually runs approx $1000. A visit to my Doctor, in his office costs $75 to $80 plus the inevitable prescription. For the same treatment.
As for the cars, I don't know what they offer anymore. The last one I bought was a 76 Chevrolet Silverado pick-up that was soooooooo bad that I have refused to buy any new vehicle since.
Just my opinion and may not necessarily be the opinion of this or any other forum, or any other person on said forum.
Thanks
Bob

[Deleted User]

You're right, there is nothing wrong with wellness care for a person, or preventative maintenace, as applied to a car. Which is precisely WHY insurance should NOT pay for it, as explained in my first post.



Government-run health care means you'll get treated IF you meet the criteria setr forth by bureaucrats, not doctors. Britain and Canada are perfect examples of how this evil works.



The free-market system, if allowed to work without government interference and meddling by HMOs, along with the drug and insurance companies, would force the costs of health care DOWN. The illusion of "free" socialized health care is exactly that. Your taxes are raised for less care, plus there are fewer workers paying those incresed taxes to cover welfare, illegals, and others, plus cover Medicare, Tricare, and other government insurance plans. Socialized medicine is the ultimate nightmare, and must be fought.

Unknown

Maybe Canadians rush across the border into the US for the same reason Americans are rushing to India and other countries for treatments, it's cheaper.

[Deleted User]

If you want sex-change operations and other questionable medical procedures done, you're right.



And, Dave, the costs of those preventative maintenace programs offered by the car companies (of all nationalities, BTW), adds to the price of the car up front, and is yet another cost passed on to the consumer.



Nothing is "free".

Unknown

Well, After 36 years at Ford Motor , I finally put in my retirement papers. I really feel that the big three is doomed. It's really a combination of sorts that I think is causing their demise. Corporate greed is one of them, bad decisions by management, skyrocketing health ins., gas prices ,foreign cars flooding the market, etc, etc, etc. I can remember when I was a kid you might see a Sabb or a VW on the road and laugh. Now when you stop at a light your surrounded by forgien vehicles.

This is just the start. What about all the companies associated with the industrys. It's just plain going to be a domino effect, affecting thousands.

Only the strong will survive. Starting with mergers, selloffs, etc.

How to fix it? Love to hear solutions

Unknown

66patrick66 wrote:

If you want sex-change operations and other questionable medical procedures done, you're right.



And, Dave, the costs of those preventative maintenace programs offered by the car companies (of all nationalities, BTW), adds to the price of the car up front, and is yet another cost passed on to the consumer.



Nothing is "free".

Now, now, many people go to other lands for state-of-the-art medical proceedures. Case in point is hip resurfacing being done in India. Why are so many Americans going there for it? Because the FDA hasn't approved the fabulous American made joint material used in the process. BTW, I never said anything about vehicle preventative maintenance being free? Please read my post more "carefully."

[Deleted User]

Everytime my wife me or my kids go to the dentist they take x-rays even if its only a month after our last visit. They do this because they can charge my insurance for it. We now refuse it if we have already done it for the year. Also in Canada they have two health systems those who can afford to pay for there own ( the rich ) and get good medical in a timely manner and those with "socialized health care" waiting for medical attention. I am an American through and through but If you really think about it what does the Government do well. I would not trust them with my medical. The U.S. auto industry will be fine, there are always ups and downs.

[Deleted User]

I'm a Canadian and I never waited for anything concerning health care. I make an appointment with my Doctor go get great treatment nothing to it. Don't know anyone who has gone south of the border for healthcare. System works pretty well I think. Biggest flaw in healthcare systems is they are reactive and not proactive. When was the last time you saw an ad saying get off your ass and excercise or eat right and take vitamins. System is setup to treat illness not promote wellness.

People eat crap, eat too much and are overweight then complain about their health. Never fails to amaze me. Trans Fats is a case in point. Make an artificial fat molecule that does not break down in the body because it allows fast food restuarants to keep oil in fryers for months. Make food with this and sell to public. This stuff is poison....I shake my head.

SuperDave

Most feared words "I'm from the government and I'm here to help you"

[Deleted User]

looks like a sad time in the usa all together. glad to be aussie!

50C8DAN

Just a note. The subsidized health car for the Japanese, Korean, and German companies only applies to that shipped to this country. The cars made here in their plants are made by employees with non-government subsidized health care plans, i.e. similar to what the big 3 offer.

Aaron D. IL

It's better to address problems early when they're small and cheaper to fix rather than later when they cost $1000's it's true of cars and true of people. I don't believe the FDA is doing things in the best interest of Americans. We all like to assume someone is "watching the store" but that's probably not the case. Maybe socialized medicine is not the way to go but it's already to the point in many cases that if you're rich you live and if you're not you die. A civilized country should at least be able to level the playing field, it doesn't havce to tell the wealthy they can't buy whatever they can afford. I wonder if the healthcare providers don't bare some of the responsibility for the current state of things...... consider this: If the price the market will bare for a loaf of bread is $1.00, then that's all they can really charge for it. OK now suppose we throw in "bread insurance" and the insurance company says "We'll pay up to $2.00 for when you need bread". The bakery says "OK We'll take that!" The new price for bread is now $3.00 but the consumer with bread insurance still only pays $1.00 because that's all they can pay or are willing to pay. OK now, what does bread cost the consumer who doesn't have bread insurance? $3.00!!!!! Think about that analogy and thnk about how our hospitals are now run like businesses and you might get an idea why it's out of control. There's this back and forth game between hospitals and insurance companies and people are caught in the middle. When was the last time you looked at a medical bill and understood what it said? Or wondered why the hospital charge $5 for a single asprin you took that you could've bought yourself at your local drug store for a $1 or less?!

Unknown

half baked wrote:

looks like a sad time in the usa all together. glad to be aussie!

Despite all its problems, be they real or perceived, there is no better place in the world to live but the good old USA, the land of the free, home of the brave and just about everything that people in the world enjoy, including Hudsons!

[Deleted User]

AMEN ! Well said.
Bob

rambos_ride

Dave53-7C wrote:

Despite all its problems, be they real or perceived, there is no better place in the world to live but the good old USA, the land of the free, home of the brave and just about everything that people in the world enjoy, including Hudsons!

Well put Dave!

Its very easy for auto execs to point fingers and tie their financial woes to rising health care costs, wages, gov'n enforced fuel and safety regs.

Personally I don't understand the cutting of health care benefits to save money because I as a business owner would rather have HEALTHY HAPPY employees than sick and embittered ones who can't afford to go to the doctor.

But back to the auto makers problems - I see it being more of a problem with the design and manufacture of todays cars that is the root of the problem.

With all the increased weight saving metal alloys, composites and plastics - Detroit has failed by increasing the avg weight of todays cars to 4100lbs

A fully dressed Commodore of the day wieghed only 3800 tops!

I'd say overall mechanical technology is better but I really think also todays auto designers have it ALL wrong. Pick any new car out there and what you'll see is a horrible design mix of sharp angular lines with a smattering of round curves that looks like #$%IMHO!

I think a little less outside finger pointing and some introspective and technical innovations are the only things that will save them in the long run.

[Deleted User]

What really kills me about the big three is how they screw us and think we should be happy. They build big factories to make SUV's then add move factories to make more SUV's then when the bottom drops out of that market they scramble and layoff thousands, cry foul and say ...my, my we didn't see it coming when every couch potato arm chair auto enthusiast (Thats us) saw this coming a mile off.

I just came back from 2 months in Brazil and GM, Ford and Chrysler sell really nice cars down there. They are flex vehicles and will run on a combo of fuels. The cars are small to midsize, handle nicely look good and get great gas mileage. Do we see these models in North America? do we have plants to build them? of course the answer is no. Why because they prefer to screw us because we spend the most per vehicle and they think we are willing to bend over.

I for one want a nice economical car that is resonable to run and does not cost an arm and a leg. I don't want to hear BS about their woes they waste more money in a day than I do in a lifetime. Get smart get back to basics and like rambo said stop designing cars that look like crap. If you can do it all over the world why not here.....ya lugheads....

[Deleted User]

Dave, I read and understand your post just fine, hence my comments about it.

Aaron D. IL

Have to agree with you Rambo, Detroit hasn't really made a car that actually looks good IMHO since 1985...In fact with my taste I'd say 1965. They lack style, class or character. If you go to an auto show these days everything is boring except the concept cars and many of those aren't all that imaginative. They whoo us into the auto shows and we see the concepts and drool a bit of what might be...but then get totally disapointed and let down when the model year comes out with yet another wind-tunnel baby or worse....another SUV looking thing that's nothing more than a box with wheels. Their usual excuse is that the concept cars cost so much to make (like millions) they can't possibly market them. I don't know why?! If you want to see how a design is going to be recieved by the public just take a few thousand bucks, a good body man, and an upholstery guy and make a mockup, stick it on the car show floor....if the public says thumbs down don't make it if they say thumbs up, then sink costs into development. I know I'm preachin to the choir here but Detroit was so much more optimisitc and forward looking in the past. Where's a Harley Earl or a Frank Spring when you need one ?

Unknown

The auto industry should to look to the past in order to be successful in the future. Basically, manufacturers need to look at past triumphs to see what they did right and just do it again. Cars sales boomed when colors, models and equipment choices were offered. Proof of looking back to move forward is the Mustang, Camero and Chrylser offerings.

Unknown

Do you know why the manufactors built SUV's. Well it seems all the yahoo's and their wives just had to have one, same as living in a house they could barely afford in the best neighborhood. Just like it was in the 1960' and 1970's with station wagons. So it aint entirley their fault alone. Did you notice Mopar has now come out with a LARGE suv? and most of the other manufactors match model for model with the american manufactors. As far as todays cars. The new ones are WAY?WAY?WAY ahead of anything made before. and styling is a matter of preference. We all know people who think Hudsons were funny looking.

[Deleted User]

Come one guys. There is almost no new car out there that has "style". Even my eleven year old has mentioned this. They all look the same from 20 feet away. One could tell a 59 Cadillac from 10 miles away, or a 65 Mustang, or a Stingray or a Stepdown Hudson. Wind tunnels have created the new style-Ho-hum, Blah!

Unknown

nhp1127 wrote:

Come one guys. There is almost no new car out there that has "style". Even my eleven year old has mentioned this. They all look the same from 20 feet away. One could tell a 59 Cadillac from 10 miles away, or a 65 Mustang, or a Stingray or a Stepdown Hudson. Wind tunnels have created the new style-Ho-hum, Blah!

I second your observation about being able to tell cars apart from blocks away. Isn't it strange that with todays technology and materials, many cars still don't get good gas mileage.

rambos_ride

nhp1127 wrote:

Come one guys. There is almost no new car out there that has "style". Even my eleven year old has mentioned this. They all look the same from 20 feet away. One could tell a 59 Cadillac from 10 miles away, or a 65 Mustang, or a Stingray or a Stepdown Hudson. Wind tunnels have created the new style-Ho-hum, Blah!

Yep! I couldn't agree more!

That's the reason I'm building my Hudson. I may end up with 20k or more into it but it will still cost less to drive (all costs involved - not just gas) than any new car of the same price or higher!

SamJ

Of course design is a matter of taste, but the Dodge Magum wagon, the Saturn sports car based on the Pontiac Solstice, the Mustang GT, the new Caddy based on the Corvette and the Corvette itself (among others) appeal to me. And if you had to drive coast-to-coast in four days, would you really rather drive a car from the '50's or '60's than, say, the new Ford or Merc sedan (I forget what they're called)? Really?? If so, you're a better man than I am...

Unknown

hello, the new hornet on page 10 of sept/oct wtn looks like, a import and/or domestic that looks like every other import/domestic out there. they all look the same. i walk out to a box store parking lot and my suv is in a sea of others, but my 37 tplane stand out like a sore thumb. loved the days when you saw a grill or body and knew what it was, oh well, progress. not....................................:)

[Deleted User]

I thought some wind tunnel test actually showed a 1939 boat-tail 4-door Buick was the best with a drag coeffient of something like .39. All the new cars are higher.



At least this is what I remember from some show years ago on Discovery or TLC or some similar channel.