Splasher 6 Cyl vs 8 Cyl Engine Noise

BigSky

As I’ve been working on my 1937 Hudson 212ci 6 cylinder engine for the past 4 years, I’m wondering if I have made a major error in thinking.  

I have assumed that the 1937 6 cylinder engine should be able to run as quiet as the 1937 8 cylinder engine.  Am I wrong in thinking this?  Is there some reason the 6 cylinder engine is going to just make more noise than the 8 cylinder engine? 

The 1937 Hudson 254ci 8 cylinder engine’s 1st run after sitting for approximately 17 years & its such a quiet engine.   https://youtu.be/b_UWSSQLc1I

The 1937 Hudson 212ci 6 cylinder engine was run today after replacing the cam thrust washer & trimming down the two bolts behind the cam gear spokes for proper clearance, etc.  I also redid the static timing since that could have been off.  I figured with the lifters possibly riding on a different location on the cam lobes, I will need to readjust the valves and I believe I’m hearing some lifter noise too.  However, I’m still having a hard time believing the noise from this 6 cylinder engine is what it should be normally making.  https://youtu.be/r7FYp6Sv-ic

ken1962

If you read the history of the development of the motor car engines. This should give you an understanding why the flat head 6 was way noisier than say a rolls Royce 6. Americans in the 1920s and 30s who were wealthy were able to achieve a quiet engine by using a v12 or v16. Generally European engines were more devoloped and thus more expensive due to their complexity but were more quiet. Dussenbergs likewise were a quiet engine. Usa cars for the masses were cheap to build, easy to fix but the downside were abit noisey. Our 1934 wolseley 6 was way quieter than my 1936 terraplane but the English car was far more advanced mechically with overhead cams, 4 speed transmission, better rear axle ratio etc making it a way quieter car travelling at speed. The American straight 8 was created in part to make the car a bit more powerful. Quieter thru the gears and travelling at a lower revolution rpm hence less noise. The Ford v8 changed most Americans way of thinking, it gave them a quieter smoother ride with power in reserve and even the straight 8s fell out of favour.
Cheers ken 

ken1962

Love the reply ken ? have a great day cheers ken

Geoff

What Ken says!   A properly machined and assembled 212 6 is actually quieter than an 8, because there is  less mechanism to make a noise.   You need to inspect those cam lobes if they are noisy.  If you cannot reduce the noise by shorting our plugs, then it will be worn lifters or cams.

terraplane8

The eight was only running on 7 cylinders or less - you can see in the video that the front cylinder plug lead is off the plug!

My 212 sounds clattery like yours, it had very worn lifters with troughs cut in them which I replaced with a refaced set but I didn’t get the cam reground. Still runs great, and the sound disappears over about 2,000 rpm. I have heard quiet 212’s though. Can’t say I agree with Ken, especially as RR bought their own Terraplane Eight to analyse and were amazed at how smooth and quiet the engine was compared to their own engine. This is all documented in James Fack’s book on the Terraplane. There are reasons why the side valve Hudson engines were quiter than OHV engines, mainly because the valve gear was buried in the engine block and not on top of the head inside a tin can cover. Duesenberg engines are horrifically noisy, Youtube has some good in-car videos to demonstrate that.

Geoff

If the lifters are worn the cams will be as well.   You must use a high-zinc oil.  In the R.R. experiment they used a '33 Terraplane which had roller lifters, not solid.  

terraplane8

terraplane8 said:

Duesenberg engines are horrifically noisy, Youtube has some good in-car videos to demonstrate that.

Enjoy the noise!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B7XNCRC5wpk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7TaDI4D-xdg

hasktavern1

Bigsky, perhaps a dumb question, but are you certain that you have the correct matched set of crankshaft and camshaft gears?

BigSky

Ken UTex:  Not sure why you need to be so derogatory when someone asks a simple question but your replies & the way you have treated many on this forum are the reason many have left.  Let me put this in very simple terms:  “If you can’t say anything nice don’t say anything at all”.

Now, for those interested in how this turned out...  I ended up taking things apart again with the engine & fortunately there was nothing wrong with the cam & lifters.  Since the problem was elsewhere, it was corrected & everything put back together.  She’s running so much quieter it’s hard to believe it’s the same engine.  Not straight 8 quiet but darn close!

Geoff

So where was the noise coming from????

eddiehudson

I met Ken U a few years ago and he's a really good guy.

As Geoff asked, Where was the noise coming from?

eddiehudson

BTW I met Ken in Hershey.

tigermoth

Geoff, as you know, ZDDP was developed after these splashers were designed, built and put in service...there is more ZDDP in today’s oils than at that time. Is there anything you have found in period publications discussing excessive lifter and valve wear on these engines? 

The reason I ask is at 45 years as a mechanic I have my experience, my research, my reading and drawing on other mechanics field experience and their research.

thank you.

regards, Tom

tigermoth

* lifter and cam wear on these engines

Geoff

Nothing in publications, but plenty of experience of extreme wear in the cams and lifters - nose worn off cam, and groove worn in lifter.   Tappet adjustment does not alleviate the noise of wear here, only replacement or regrinding.  

blondwookie

I've seen worn lifters and cam cause problems, and I have also seem rod pin bushings cause problems too. I had a Ford 312 engine with a worn out cam and lifters, replaced them, then found the true problem, a bad rod bushing that would float, then remove the knock, float again and the knock returned. replaced the rod with a resized rod and good bushing, my customer was rather happy with the repairs.

hasktavern1

The camshaft in my 36T business coupe was worn to a point of disbelief....disbelief that the engine still ran, which it did but with lots of clatter and very little compression.  Extreme wear on both cam and lifters - never saw anything as bad and have had a number of vintage engines apart.  I attribute it to a combination of poor quality oil, cold climate use, poor maintenance, and possibly (?) design.  To be fair to the splasher 212, it had 90K miles when I got it, was still running, and I'm certain it had never been apart....which is even more remarkable in that I know this car was used hard, and was an everyday driver in the Colorado high mountain region until 1962.,,,and then was used as a 'field car' on a Colorado ranch until 1985.  

Geoff

Yes, you could say bad design, considering the original version  was roller followers, in which you did still get wear on the pin and inside diameter of the roller, but in brutal financial considerations, it worked, and was much cheaper to do than re-design the whole thing.   I'm sure zinc oil is the answer, but of course in your case if you want to re-commission the motor you are going to have to get a new cam lifters.   Dale Cooper has the lifters, and I'm sure there are  good s/h camshafts hanging around somewhere.  The same cam was used from 1934 to 1940 inclusive.  It is possible to build up the cams and re-grind, but quite expensive to do so.