Hudson Single Lever transmissions

[Deleted User]

A drive in the '49 Super Six yesterday convinced me that the transmission needs immediate attention, and can't be put off any longer. I have a 2 lever Borg-Warner sitting in the shop, with a Jeep top-cap shifter ready to go.



Problem, I've fallen in love with the smooth and relatively effortless shifting of the single lever, column shifted transmission. I have never shifted anything on the column that will compare with it. Call it a Hudsonly epiphany if you will - its grown on me to the point I want to keep it.



I like the gear ratios better than the 2 lever, the lower first and second gears will let me run a taller rear ratio and still have "take off" without going to an OD.



The more I compare the two, I keep favoring the single lever. With one exception - parts availability.



I'm wondering if I can lean on the wisdom of the forum for some insight into parts for the single lever transmission.



What am I going to run into? Has anyone found parts sources or what interchangability exists between this transmission and others. Was this transmission used on other makes of vehicles as was the T-86 Borg Warner?



I may have a completely rebuilt and blueprinted, top shifted, T-86 Non-OD transmission for sale soon. LOL



Thanks in advance.



Mark Hudson

[Deleted User]

Mark, The T-86 was a very popular transmission back in the day. Studebakers ,Kaisers, Fords and many others had them or a version of it. If you get a Hollander interchange manual you will learn that there are many internal gears shafts,etc that will interchange with Hudson. The biggerst part that WON'T interchange with anything is the bell housing. Try finding a 26th edition Hollanders to find out what you need and what will interchange.You will be surprised. The internals are not entirely unique top Hudson.Good luck.

[Deleted User]

Thanks Lance, I'll be on the lookout for the 26th Edition Hollanders interchange manual.



I am beginning to see some similarity between the Single Lever and T-86 internals. Enough to keep me very interested in just how much may swap between these two transmissions. Most of the parts I bought to rebuild the T-86 were actually T-90 parts from a Jeep supplier.



I had shyed away from the single lever thinking it was uniquely Hudson.



Its ironic that I started out to change so much about these cars - and they wind up staying relatively the same. Great cars.



Mark

[Deleted User]

Mark,

I am finding that myself the more you work on the Hudsons the more you realize you have a pretty special car. They drive great. Every time I start my 308 and hear that roar I get a big smile on my face. Mine runs so well it scares me I don't want to touch anything but can't keep my mitts off it...its an addiction.

[Deleted User]

51hornetA wrote:

Mark,



I am finding that myself the more you work on the Hudsons the more you realize you have a pretty special car. They drive great. Every time I start my 308 and hear that roar I get a big smile on my face. Mine runs so well it scares me I don't want to touch anything but can't keep my mitts off it...its an addiction.

Oh, that roar! I've got headers and glasspacks that at present just turn down under the front seat. Its a simple engine with no modifications other than the intake and exhaust - but as I keep fine tuning it - its making my grin get wider and wider.



Shifting that lever up and feeling the torque push me back in the seat.



This transmission, the single lever, shifts so much better than the '53 Wasp (a double lever). Even under extreme shifting, it never fails and is in gear quickly. I like that.



It just makes alot of noise and jumps out of second if I let off the gas.



Time to build another, better, single lever.



Mark

Unknown

For those who may be unfamiliar with single and double lever shifters, can someone please explain the differences?

Geoff

The difference is that the single lever box of course has only one rod coming from the gear linkage, and a cable linkage to shift the internal selector between the shift rails. This is actuated from a link at the bottom of the column, which moves when you push the gearshift lever down to select 2nd or top. The ratios of the single lever box are quite a bit lower, hence acceleration is probably better off the mark, but there is quite a jump from 2nd to top as far as ratios go. the 2-lever box is a standard Borg-Warner that was used by Ford, Studebaker, Hudson, and various other makes. There are no interchangeable parts between the two types of box that I am aware of.

Geoff.

Jon B

Also, the single-lever transmission was built by Hudson, right? (Ergo, parts are not as plentiful as those for Borg-Warner, or larger auto manufacturers.) Hudson also made their own rearends as well. I think in that respect they were fairly unique for smaller manufacturers (and ever some of the larger ones as well.)



I see n.o.s. Hudson transmission parts popping up for sale on Ebay and in the WTN once in awhile, so it's not impossible to rebuild using new parts.

[Deleted User]

I believe Jim Guinn has several of the single lever transmissions, it might be easiest to just get one from him and install it......

[Deleted User]

Jim has several? I did not know that. I need to get in touch with Mr Guinn anyway and catch up on his stash - just a good reason to do such a thing.



I'm going to take on the rebuild and see what I can find out. There isn't that many parts in the transmission to be replaced. The input and output bearings I'm sure can be had from a bearing supplier. The needle bearings that center the input shaft to the output shaft, may be common to some other transmission. The counter gear or reverse idler has no bearings, they are bushed. The reverse and counter gear shafts can be made or built up and resized if need be. From my experiance in dealing with farm equipment, you can get shims to replace the ones at each end of the countershaft.



The wild card is the gears themselves and the synchronizer.



I'm a terrible tinkerer, especially with things like this. We'll see what I run into.



Mark

Unknown

I have a 262 engine, clutch ,and transmission out of my 49 that I would part with.

Unknown

Geoff and Jon, Thanks for sharing the info. It's always helpful to have facts from people in the know.

Unknown

Hudsonator,



Do you know why your trans jumps out of 1nd gear when you let off the gas? My 49 Commodore does the same thing - I have no noise, the transmission shifts great, only issue is that it jumps out of 2nd if I let off the gas.



BST RGDS

GARY ( happychris )

Unknown

I'd be willing to bet that the trouble with the trans hopping out of second is that a bearing (usually front) in the countershaft has too much play. Thus it deflects when not under load. Or, the gear on the cluster set could be worn down.



I'd love to know from some of the real Hudnuts with more experience how close my shot in the dark is.

Geoff

It is bound to be a combination of bad bearings, too much end play, and wear in both the dog teeth on the 2nd gear and the synchro ring. You can only fix it by replacing the relevant parts.

Geoff.

Unknown

I would trade my single lever for a double lever anyday, but need the other parts as well... and mine has some "slop"...

[Deleted User]

I finally tore into my single lever transmission for a detailed look at things in there and compare it to a double lever I was working on for a topshifted arrangement.



There are numerous surprizes in the single lever compared to the double. But I didn't have time to photograph everything I noticed while cleaning the parts for measurement. I was mainly interested in the synchronizer units for each.



Mainly the blocker rings, as they are the only difference between the units.



This is a comparison between the Single Lever 3 speed and the 2 Lever transmission, and the synchronizer blocker rings used for each.



The shift collar and mainshaft collar, as well as the springs and detent clips, are the same for both types of transmissions. The shaft with the finer splines for rev/1st is the single lever, the coarse splined mainshaft is the 2 lever. If you notice the blocker rings, there is a slight difference. Both blocker rings are of the same overall thickness, pitch, and tooth count. However, the thickness of the teeth is the difference between the two blockers. The single lever teeth are 0.105" thick - the 2 lever teeth are 0.175" thick.



So, the synchronizer unit is interchangable between the T-86 and the Single Lever Hudson transmissions. The difference in blocker ring teeth did not caus a problem, in fact - they probably improve things a bit by having the blocker ring closer to the mainshaft collar. I don't really understand why the Single lever teeth had so much clearance between the blocker ring and the mainshaft collar. I tested both blocker rings, and the 2nd/3rd shift was just fine and a tad more positive with the T-86 blocker.



There ya have it, no need to trash that single lever because of a blocker ring/synchronizer problem - they are interchangable with any T-86 or T-90 Borg Warner transmission.



More to come soon.



Mark Hudson

Unknown

Single lever trans should be very easy to come by as they were the same from 41 thru 51.

bob ward

Re Hudsonator's response #17 above - that is fascinating.



I had always believed the Hudson single lever 'box was a Hudson item and the BW T86 was a BW item and never the twain shall meet.



But if there are these commonalities there must have been some co-operation or possibly copying somewhere.



Anyone know the story?



Does the T86 use the metric series bearings same as the single lever?

[Deleted User]

bob ward wrote:

Re Hudsonator's response #17 above - that is fascinating.



I had always believed the Hudson single lever 'box was a Hudson item and the BW T86 was a BW item and never the twain shall meet.



But if there are these commonalities there must have been some co-operation or possibly copying somewhere.



Anyone know the story?



Does the T86 use the metric series bearings same as the single lever?

I had always thought the single lever to be its own beast also. Which if these transmissions do go back to '41, all this fanagling I'm doing should be of benefit to the splasher lovers as well.



I'm not finished with the comparison between the two, I just concentrated on the synchro outfit today. I will say a couple of things, 1) I'm almost certain the input shaft to be identical between the T-86 and Single lever; 2) It also think its possible to swap gearsets between the two - but you have to swap an entire gearset as the ratios and mainshaft splines are different.



They do share countershaft shims - identical and interchangable with the T-86/T-90 and Single Lever. I still need to compare small parts such as the input shaft needle bearings, etc. I'm pretty excited to discover as much similarity as I have thus far.



The Single Lever has many little details that I like. Details that the T-86 does not have and evidently make alot of difference. Hopefully in the next few days, I'll point them out. I do like this transmission, the more I mess with it the more I like it.



Mark Hudson

Geoff

So the big question is - If this box was built by Borg-Warner, who else used it apart from Hudson?

Geoff.

[Deleted User]

Geoff C., N.Z. wrote:

So the big question is - If this box was built by Borg-Warner, who else used it apart from Hudson?

Geoff.

I'm beginning to think that perhaps Hudson bought the gearsets from Borg Warner and manfuactured the case themselves. The case/bellhousing has the look of being retrofitted to the gears.



Mark Hudson

[Deleted User]

today, I took on the input shafts. Looking for differences and similarities. The findings were surprizing.





The Double Lever T-86 is on the right. It has a total length of 8.232". The Single lever on the left has a total length of 8.410". The dimentions from the face of the blocker ring taper to the gear face is the same. The distance, diameter, pitch, and tooth count of the lockup ring is the same for both input shafts. The Single lever has a step above the gear face for the bearing and is longer between the clutch spline and the taper ahead of the bearing seat.







The T-86 double lever input shaft is on the right. It has 19 teeth on its constant mesh gear, but is of a tooth pitch as to have only 2.415" gear diameter. The Single Lever is on the left and has 18 teeth, but is of a larger gear tooth pitch that makes it 2.785" in diameter. The Single lever input shaft has much beefier gears than the T-86. I had once been told the input shafts were interchangable, based on what I've found thus far - they are not. There is more.



Mark Hudson

[Deleted User]

The T-86 Needle bearings are on the right, T-90 needle in the middle, and the Single lever needles on the left. I had not counted on finding this much difference, but is the first time I had them all laid down next to each other.



The T-86 needle is .217" in diameter and 0.512"long. The T-86 needles were damaged on the ends as they had been galled against the input shaft and mainshaft, the length may not be very accurate. The T-90/T-86 replacement needles are .218" in diameter and 0.740" long. The Single Lever needles are 0.187" diameter and .525" long.



I proceeded to investigate the space these needles run in.







Since the Single Lever needles turned out to be much smaller in diameter @ 0.187" compared to the T-86 @ 0.217", I measured the inner bore of the input shaft. The counterbore into the constant mesh gear that serves at the needle cage. The T-86 is on the right, with a bearing cage bore of 1.2027-1.2028". The Single Lever with a bearing cage bore of 1.1516"-1.1514". This isn't the only difference in needle bearing fitment between the two types of transmissions.







The needle races for each type of mainshaft was aslo measured to check against the needle and cage measurements. The T-86 dual lever mainshaft is on the right. The T-86 needle race measured 0.7625". The Single Lever mainshaft measured 0.774".



Pretty obvious the two input shafts are not interchangable as I'd previously thought and been informed. Also, the needle bearings are not interchangable between the Single Lever and the T-86 double lever. The gearset for the single lever is of a larger tooth pitch, with alot more metal in each indiviual tooth. The downside to this is that more force is applied to fewer teeth at a time.



The investigation will continue. More soon.



Mark Hudson

Geoff

Just goes to prove that important corollary to Murphy's Law - "Interchangeable parts exhibit fundamental differences"!

super651

Mark, This is the kind of Research that helps us ALL.

Diss. and investigate each part of whatever it is that is in queston.



Thanks so much for the Professional Analysis of the Std.Trans.

We local Hud-nuts were going to take this on,Thanks to you it saved all of us.

This is another + with our club, helping each other with whatever it is.

Hudsonly Rudy.

( could you list the ONLY-parts that will interchange ? )

[Deleted User]

Thanks Rudy,



Right now it looks like the only parts that will interchange are the synchro unit and the front input shaft bearing. The bearings are what I'll tackle next.



When I get finished with the comparison, I'll hunt down parts and hopefully have numbers/proceedures. The summary should be a list of interchanges, differences, and where to find the parts for the single lever and double.



I was kinda taken aback when I laid out the replacement needle, right now it looks like it won't work in a T-86 - too long.



Mark

Kdancy

Mark,
If your still on the forum, how did the comparison turn out? Do you still have the picture info?

SuperDave

Converting to a double lever requires all new shift linkage as well as the tranny. IE: a complete parts car.. If the single lever tranny was repairable, that would be a much easier way to go. Just my 2 cents worth.

LHudson

Hey guys. I am the father of Hudsonator. He has not been on the forum of some time now. He has little time to spare. With his job and farming activities , he stays very busy.
The pics. are probably lost. The comparisons are written down somewhere. He keeps a good record of the things he does. We rebuilt the single lever trans and put it in the 49. The one we took out had a badly twisted input shaft. Single levers are known for soft input shafts. The rebuilt trans was noisy for a while. The more we drove it, the quieter it got. It has been in now for about 5 yrs. I have been driving and showing the 49 for the past few yrs. I enjoy driving the car. In fact, going to a cruz in this afternoon. We added a Jet to the collection last spring. Acquiring parts and info. on the Jet. Thats where the Hudson boys are as of now. L Hud