New Info: "Ceramic Insulation"

rambos_ride

I've done a lot of reading and thinking about insulation in the Hudson.

Dyanmat is just too heavy for my needs. When I see them cover the entire floor of a car, trunk and the interior doors, etc... the only thing I see is the needless addition of about 150-200lbs of that stuff!

Truthfully that Dynamat should only be used in strips and sparingly.

I've not used any of this stuff yet but am planning on using it with the 49 build and hve been looking at Lizard Skin spray/roll-on product. $190.00 for 2 gallons.

LizardSkin® Ceramic Insulation formula is an advanced, water-based composition of high-grade acrylic binders with air-filled insulating/reflective and sound-absorbing particles.

And have been planning on using it when I ran across a neat thread on another forum I frequent about ceramic insulation and what its really made of.

A responder pointed out that they had used LS before and it looked to be nothing more than latex paint with the microspheres added and If you look at the LizardSkin description "water-based composition" - well, latex paint is water based...

Anyway the point is you can buy the microspheres in bulk and make your own "insulating paint"!:eek:

There is a big caveat though - you have to be careful handling the spheres and where a respirator at a minimum - hate to see what those little things would do to your lungs!

So - I thought this is good information to share, I'm actually going to look into using this with Waterbased Automotive paint for tinting and because I am not too sure about using latex on the car I just spent so much time stripping!

http://www.hytechsales.com/insulating_paint_additives.html

Unknown

I guess I've done plenty of postings of how I'm insulating my '48. Corroless, rubberized undercoat, foil-backed insulation. Here's a picture of the same thing done to the engine cover of my boat. It's truly amazing how much heat,and engine noise this stuff stops. I've got enough of this stuff so that both sides of the firewall will be done, along with the roof, doors, floor, inside quarterfenders, and trunk area. It's a good thing I installed an automatic. I wouldn't be able to hear the engine to know when to shift. (ha)

mrsbojigger

I've been thinking about this very same thing. I prefer to undercoat my cars so what would happen if you mix the microspheres with the undercoat. Then use the microspheres mixed with latex for the interior. The latex is inherently good at filling cracks due to it's viscosity. This may give a super sealed car. Then use you sound deadening sheets over that on the interior.
On my convertible I used 1/4" closed cell foam I purchased from my local foam dealer and then a layer of the fiber matte with aluminum foil stuff which I purchased from my local hardware store. I worked rather well considering it's low cost.
Peace,
Chaz

[Deleted User]

Lets keep this thread going. I am also interested in this as I will be wanting to insulate (mostly against heat here) and sound deaden my car.

Great info!

Jay

[Deleted User]

I used Dynamat when helping my buddy put his 68 Pontiac sedan back together. We did the floor and used another product in the doors. We used Dynamat original and it certainly did not add 150-200 Ibs the stuff weighs about .7Ibs per square foot. Was pretty thin stuff. They also sell a Dynamat spray. One thing I can say is it sure made that car quite.

Unknown

We used Dynamat original on the roof, but did not use it in the doors or floor. It is basically a foam product and would naturally retain moisture if it gets wet. We used the Dynamat Extreme on the floor and anywhere that might get wet. My Flow Master exhaust is pretty loud, don't know what it would be like without the insulation. The headliner was not hot when the car was in the in sun. I would recomend Dynamat as a pretty good product.



Barry

[Deleted User]

Barry,

that does not sound right. The dealer told us different and even on their website they say original is for floor use and since the styrene is butyadine rubber coated it does not retain moisture and on their facts they say original is not to be used on roofs here is there quote:

" Dynamat Original is our entry-level damping material and offers the best compromise between damping efficiency and cost. It is recommended for floors, doors, side panels and the floor of the trunk. For best installation and performance, use a heat gun during installation. Dynamat Original is not recommended for locations requiring upside down installation (such as car roofs). For those locations, use either Dynamat Xtreme."

rambos_ride

51hornetA wrote:

I used Dynamat when helping my buddy put his 68 Pontiac sedan back together. We did the floor and used another product in the doors. We used Dynamat original and it certainly did not add 150-200 Ibs the stuff weighs about .7Ibs per square foot. Was pretty thin stuff. They also sell a Dynamat spray. One thing I can say is it sure made that car quite.

What I was talking about was shows like Oberhaulin' where every square inch of the interior surfaces gets covered with the stuff. I'm not saying dynamat is a inferior product, its great stuff for what it does - I just believe most people over use it.

Dynamat Original Bulk Pak
Contents: (3) 32"x 54" (813mm x 1372mm) pieces of Dynamat Original
Total Coverage: 36 ft² (3.34 m²)

That's about 25 lbs of extra weight for this amount of coverage. I haven't measured yet but it probably take at least 2x-3x that amount to do the trunk, floor, and roof. And this still wouldn't address the exterior surfaces.

rambos_ride

mrsbojigger wrote:

I've been thinking about this very same thing. I prefer to undercoat my cars so what would happen if you mix the microspheres with the undercoat. Then use the microspheres mixed with latex for the interior. The latex is inherently good at filling cracks due to it's viscosity. This may give a super sealed car. Then use you sound deadening sheets over that on the interior.
On my convertible I used 1/4" closed cell foam I purchased from my local foam dealer and then a layer of the fiber matte with aluminum foil stuff which I purchased from my local hardware store. I worked rather well considering it's low cost.
Peace,
Chaz

There shouldn't be any reason you couldn't mix the spheres with sprayable undercoating. you use a gun simialr to an undercoat gun anyway to spray this stuff.

I would believe the LS Sound Deadening formula is exactly that!

mrsbojigger

Hey Dan,
That's about what I figured about LS. We are all old enought to have seen older products mixed and repackaged and come out as something new and improved. LS is probably great but if you are doing your homework you can come up with something equal but much cheaper. As you know I'm one of those guys that march to a different drummer anyway.
As a side note, I used roll on bed liner that I picked up at my local hardware store under my fenders and splash panels to prevent "stars" in my paint on the tops of my fenders. Works great!
Peace,
Chaz

Unknown

51hornetA wrote:

Barry,



that does not sound right. The dealer told us different and even on their website they say original is for floor use and since the styrene is butyadine rubber coated it does not retain moisture and on their facts they say original is not to be used on roofs here is there quote:



" Dynamat Original is our entry-level damping material and offers the best compromise between damping efficiency and cost. It is recommended for floors, doors, side panels and the floor of the trunk. For best installation and performance, use a heat gun during installation. Dynamat Original is not recommended for locations requiring upside down installation (such as car roofs). For those locations, use either Dynamat Xtreme."

The Dynamat product we used on the roof is called Dynaliner. I checked a left over box, and it lists roof as one of it's uses. It was applied over a spray on adhesive.



Barry

[Deleted User]

Ok I thought thats probably what you used.....

Unknown

Be careful when mixing products. Case in point............I decided to shoot some clear over the gelcoat of my 30 yr old Glastron ski-boat. I had 3/4 gallon of "High Image Clear", left over from painting my SprintCar. I was sure that wouldn't be enough, so I went to my local paint store to buy some more. It seems Dupont discontinued the "High Image Clear",because it was so expensive, and most bodyshops didn't want to go the extra bucks. So I asked if there was a clear that was compatable. He sold me a Dupont clear, that he said was compatable. When I sprayed the first couple of coats with the "High Image Clear", things were going great, but, as I thought, 3/4 gallon wasn't enough for the whole project. I mixed the new stuff "Dupont Select Clear", and 30 seconds after I started spraying, the paint started to have a bad reaction. (see attached picture) I called the paint store, they double checked, and assured me that the two were suppose to be compatable. They then gave me Duponts 1-800 tech help number, and I explained the whole process about what happened to him. He told me the two products were compatable......just not "WET". The different formulas, coupled with the different catalyst, messed the paintjob up. Luckily I had only sprayed a few feet of the boat before the reaction took place. I had to sand the "bad stuff" smooth, and start all over. The project ended up turning out fine, (see pic) but if that bad of a reaction can happen with like products from the same manufacturer, worse things could happen mixing different manufacturers products. Other than being a member of the Hudson Club, I'm also a member of the "Classic Glastron Boat Owners Association". I guess I just like making "OLD" stuff look new.

[Deleted User]

Hey Wes, in the 1st pic, thats how low I want my Coupe!

And thanks for the tip as well.

rambos_ride

wkitchens wrote:

Be careful when mixing products. Case in point............I decided to shoot some clear over the gelcoat of my 30 yr old Glastron ski-boat. I had 3/4 gallon of "High Image Clear", left over from painting my SprintCar. I was sure that wouldn't be enough, so I went to my local paint store to buy some more. It seems Dupont discontinued the "High Image Clear",because it was so expensive, and most bodyshops didn't want to go the extra bucks. So I asked if there was a clear that was compatable. He sold me a Dupont clear, that he said was compatable. When I sprayed the first couple of coats with the "High Image Clear", things were going great, but, as I thought, 3/4 gallon wasn't enough for the whole project. I mixed the new stuff "Dupont Select Clear", and 30 seconds after I started spraying, the paint started to have a bad reaction. (see attached picture) I called the paint store, they double checked, and assured me that the two were suppose to be compatable. They then gave me Duponts 1-800 tech help number, and I explained the whole process about what happened to him. He told me the two products were compatable......just not "WET". The different formulas, coupled with the different catalyst, messed the paintjob up. Luckily I had only sprayed a few feet of the boat before the reaction took place. I had to sand the "bad stuff" smooth, and start all over. The project ended up turning out fine, (see pic) but if that bad of a reaction can happen with like products from the same manufacturer, worse things could happen mixing different manufacturers products. Other than being a member of the Hudson Club, I'm also a member of the "Classic Glastron Boat Owners Association". I guess I just like making "OLD" stuff look new.

Yep, Excellent advice Wes, never mix products and if I could add anything to that it would be if you think your catalyst or reducer is old - don't use it! If you catalyst has been opened and sitting on the shelf for a couple of months - throw it out!

Here however we're just talking about adding insulating microshperes to paint or undercoating.

Other than needing a large tipped gun to shoot this stuff shouldn't react to anything within the paint system itself.

[Deleted User]

rambos_ride wrote:

Yep, Excellent advice Wes, never mix products and if I could add anything to that it would be if you think your catalyst or reducer is old - don't use it! If you catalyst has been opened and sitting on the shelf for a couple of months - throw it out!



Here however we're just talking about adding insulating microshperes to paint or undercoating.



Other than needing a large tipped gun to shoot this stuff shouldn't react to anything within the paint system itself.

so you have not seen this stuff applied to anything ? what do you suppose the surface would be like if you did the inside ofr your roof ? do you thihnk thats all that would be necessary to replace the "felt" black stuff thats up there now ? im about ready to start putting in the new headliner so i should put something better up there. whats this other stuff thats being discussed ?

[Deleted User]

wkitchens wrote:

Be careful when mixing products. Case in point............I decided to shoot some clear over the gelcoat of my 30 yr old Glastron ski-boat. I had 3/4 gallon of "High Image Clear", left over from painting my SprintCar. I was sure that wouldn't be enough, so I went to my local paint store to buy some more. It seems Dupont discontinued the "High Image Clear",because it was so expensive, and most bodyshops didn't want to go the extra bucks. So I asked if there was a clear that was compatable. He sold me a Dupont clear, that he said was compatable. When I sprayed the first couple of coats with the "High Image Clear", things were going great, but, as I thought, 3/4 gallon wasn't enough for the whole project. I mixed the new stuff "Dupont Select Clear", and 30 seconds after I started spraying, the paint started to have a bad reaction. (see attached picture) I called the paint store, they double checked, and assured me that the two were suppose to be compatable. They then gave me Duponts 1-800 tech help number, and I explained the whole process about what happened to him. He told me the two products were compatable......just not "WET". The different formulas, coupled with the different catalyst, messed the paintjob up. Luckily I had only sprayed a few feet of the boat before the reaction took place. I had to sand the "bad stuff" smooth, and start all over. The project ended up turning out fine, (see pic) but if that bad of a reaction can happen with like products from the same manufacturer, worse things could happen mixing different manufacturers products. Other than being a member of the Hudson Club, I'm also a member of the "Classic Glastron Boat Owners Association". I guess I just like making "OLD" stuff look new.

are you saying i can sand my crappy fiberglas finnish with clear coat and it will look like new ? what a great thought. my old finish can be buffed to a shine but it will not last moe than i season and its ugly again. . .

Unknown

David, I washed my boat several times with degreaser, to get the waxes off, washed it with just plain soapy water, then wet-sanded w/220 wet/dry sandpaper. Then I shot the Urethane Clear over the boat. I did everything from the bumper rail up. Here's a before and after shot. It made the metalflake come back to life. Notice how the sun had clouded the clearcoat, and made it look dull and lifeless.

[Deleted User]

wkitchens wrote:

David, I washed my boat several times with degreaser, to get the waxes off, washed it with just plain soapy water, then wet-sanded w/220 wet/dry sandpaper. Then I shot the Urethane Clear over the boat. I did everything from the bumper rail up. Here's a before and after shot. It made the metalflake come back to life. Notice how the sun had clouded the clearcoat, and made it look dull and lifeless.

sounds like the way to fly. a great summer project for my boy ! lets see, sanding 44 lineal feet by about 4 feet + maksing etc =at least a week. then after the spray, i suppose he will need to resand with 1200 and buff...= 2 weeks. (its bound to rain or something) humm, i would pay him a couple hundred a week, still a GREAT deal. oh, the boat is 22 x 8 ft wide. nice old chapparal bow rider.

rambos_ride

davidh wrote:

so you have not seen this stuff applied to anything ? what do you suppose the surface would be like if you did the inside ofr your roof ? do you thihnk thats all that would be necessary to replace the "felt" black stuff thats up there now ? im about ready to start putting in the new headliner so i should put something better up there. whats this other stuff thats being discussed ?

I have not used these ceramic insulating types of products - like Lizard Skin.

From what I have been told it's a more like an orange peel type of finish. This is due to the microshperes and the viscosity of the "base" - which we think is Latex enamel.

I do think this type of material would be worthy of using on the underside of the roof - prior to installing the headliner and is what I originally was researching when I stumbled across this stuff.

LS claims to reduce temps by 20-30 degrees - that's pretty significant for a .0040-.0060 mil thickness application.

I Think what I'll end up doing in the next month or so is buying some of the spheres and playing around with paint mixes, types and do some testing on panels to see what happens.

mrsbojigger

Dan,
Just take precautions so you don't breath in the microspheres. We want you around for a long while.
Chaz

hotrodsbyray

consider something weird - they sell a roofing mastic at lowes / home depot that is a rubber based product (not asphalt). has self sticky on back. used in doors in 1 - 2 foot squares. good sound insulator and water proof. no rust problems with it in past.