Paxton supercharger
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Here's a thought that occured to me while eyballing a '54 Kaiser Manhattan with superharger the other day. Has anyone ever seen a period Paxton supercharger such as the one on these Manhattans, ( at least I think they're Paxtons) installed on a Twin H Hornet, -- and if one actually was to do this, would there be a significant increase in power to an otherwise stock 308, and of course, would the engine have the strength to handle such equipment??
Just wondering
??
silverone
Just wondering
??
silverone
0
Comments
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Somewhere I have seen a few pictures of Paxton type blowers on Hudsons. The boost for these is about 5 to 8lbs unless you really jazz them up so I would think the Hudson engine could easily take this. The Kaiser (Continental) engine was no where near what the Hudson was.0
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It'd be very interesting to see a dyno printout of a stock 308 and another of a 308 with a bolt on Paxton, --- its kinda like something a Guy could do in '54 to "soup up" his Hudson, not having a lot of aftermarket speed equipment available at the time I would think, and it would be a really simple installation almost anyone could do.
Shoulda told my Dad to do it !!
silverone
www.hudsoncollector.com0 -
You may have seen the pictures at this link:
http://www.classiccar.com/photopost/showgallery.php/cat/554
Which is in my classicar.com gallery.
Rudy Bennett has the aforementioned Kaiser McCulloch adapted to the Hudson and it will be travelling to Tennessee to be reinstalled on my '49 w/freshly built 308.
Rudy sent me these pictures to show how the McCulloch mocks up on the Hudson.
I'm going to use the McCulloch to blow through the Edlebrock I'm currently running on the 308. Yes, the Kaiser unit is limited to 4 lbs boost but the VS57 supercharger is even more limited in the amount of cubic inches it can supply without overrunning its maximum impeller speed and ball drive capacity. A stock 308 with the "344" camshaft is about the limit of the McCulloch. Mainly due the cubic inches of the engine more than anything else.
According to the information I've been able to gather, the Hudson 308's numbers kinda put the boost output of a VS57 at around 4 psi max before the hp limit of the ball drive gets exceeded. So, a 308 with the simple bolt ons I have done pretty well matches the limitations of the supercharger.
It should put the 308 into the 220-235 hp range depending on how well I get the Edelbrock 4 barrel dialed in with the additional boost.
When it gets here, it will become priority number 1!
This is the engine I'm going to install Rudy's outfit on. I'm trying to find fuel pumps capable of putting out 10-12 psi and find a variable regulator right now. I'm pretty excited about the situation.
Mark0 -
Now that's one awesome looking setup Mark !!
On second thought, it would have been way too radical for my Dad. :-)
It'd sure blow me away to lift the hood and see that under there though !!
No wonder you're excited.
silverone0 -
Here's the magic of the VS57 McCulloch.
It is a variable speed supercharger. It has a solenoid under the emblem, which is the wire you see pigtailed out from under the emblem in the picture.
The blower drive ratio is varied by the pulley via a variable sheave. Once the manifold vacuum drops, it causes the sheave to fall back and speed up the supercharger. So, as long as you cruise with your foot out of the pedal - you are actually pulling a slight vacuum and the engine is like a normal 308. Once you drop the hammer, the sheave slips back and sends the supercharger into "high boost" and speeds it up. Once the maximum manifold pressure is reached, it governs the sheave via an air chamber that pushes the sheave back forward to maintain the preset boost pressure at the predetermined amount regardless of engine rpm.
Rudy ran it locked into "high boost" all the time like a modern Paxton. Its my intention to put it back into variable drive capacity. So, I can cruise with economy and suprize the heck out of you when I step on it.
Yeah, I'm jazzed. Thanks for the complements. Its alll old technology, but its old technolgy with teeth. Its going to take alot of tinkering to get it all working together, but I'm looking forward to the task.
Mark0 -
Mark, what is that manifold that says "Hudson Hornet" on it?0
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I worked at Paxton back in the early 90's for a couple of years. This is back when the Granatelli family owned it. I was the service manager there and I used to get a lot of calls from old timers with McCulloch blowers on old 50's cars needing service. A lot of the parts are the same as later ball drive Paxtons so most of the time I could help them, but strangely enough the Granatellis didn't care for the old stuff and would always discourage me from trying to help these people. Mark is dead right about the ball drive. It is smooth and quiet with a great step up ratio, but not the most durable thing in the world, especially if you push them too hard. The variable ratio is not very reliable. Most who even have these blowers anymore have long bypassed them. If you want a little more boost without spinning the blower harder you can recurve the impellar. You will notice the blades are pretty blunt there in the pics. We used to knife edge those blades and call it the modified impellar option. Was generally good for about 2psi, depending on the application of course. The response time of the boost was much faster also.0
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Although I prefer to keep my cars stock, this set up is enought to make anyone drool. Man, would I like to test drive a supercharged Hudson. What a great mod, quite in keeping with Hudson's race history.0
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I like this one....0
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dwardo99 wrote:Mark, what is that manifold that says "Hudson Hornet" on it?
That's a Gibson intake, made in Australia I believe. Gibson also made a two piece Hudson head. Maybe some of the 'down under' guys would care to comment here. I've got photos somewhere of one in a boat with the head and intake...:rolleyes:0 -
dwardo99 wrote:Mark, what is that manifold that says "Hudson Hornet" on it?
Ed, that intake is Rudy's Gibson-Binks manifold from the land of Oz. Its also pictured in the "Gibson-Binks" thread here on the forum. That piece is not relocating from Texas to Tennessee. Pretty, isn't it?
464Saloon - Its great to know there are experienced Paxton/McCulloch folks around. That was some great info, thanks for the input. I've contacted a fellow by the name of John Erb regarding the McCulloch and he also voiced your comments. The SN series Paxton shares the impeller, ball drive, and some seals with the VS57 and are of higher capacity than the original VS57. No doubt, in the coming months I'll have a ton of questions, as this is my first go-around with any kind of forced induction, its good to know you're around!
Wes, thanks for the parts info.
In the original Kaiser setup, the mechanical fuel pump was modified to vary according to boost pressure. An intake pressure port was added to the air side of the fuel pump diaphragm, also the side with spring/rebound pressure, to add the manifold pressure to the spring. This allowed the fuel pump output to rise in pressure to match the rise in manifold pressure.
In a blow through system, the carburetor, and all its internal chambers, must be subject to the same pressure being created by the supercharger. This means that the fuel bowl is pressurized along with the rest of the carburetor. In order to keep fuel flowing through the needle and seat, the fuel pump pressure must be increased proportionately with the added boost.
For example, if your carburetor is set up for a naturally aspirated pressure of 3 psi and you add 4 psi boost - you need 7 psi fuel pressure to maintain the fuel/intake differential. It would be ideal to vary the additional fuel pressure to what your supercharger is making at all times. The VS57 won't be making maximum boost all the time and your engine will spend most of its "crusing" time at a slight vacuum.
There are four ways I can do this:
1) electric fuel pump of excess psi capacity, with a regulator that is varied by intake pressure against the regulator diaphragm.
2) Mechanical fuel pump of excess capacity, with the same regulator setup as the electric. Variable pressure dictated by the manifold pressure.
3) A mechanical fuel pump set up like the Kaiser. An added pressure port to the spring side of the fuel diaphragm that will raise the fuel pressure as the boost increases.
4) Electro-mechanical. A stock mechanical fuel pump supplemented by a "flow through" electric pump. The McCulloch aftermarket offerings supplied a fuel pump that was actuated by the same vacuum switch that activated the "high blower" solenoid on the supercharger unit. Effectively, the electric fuel pump boosted the psi of the delivered fuel over the stock mechanical pump. No regulator was used due to the over capacity of the electric fuel pump. The maximum fuel output would only kick in when the blower is activated into "high blower" to coincide with the additional boost.
I'm leaning towards option 2. This is why the "AMC fuel pump" application has me intrigued. I'd rather run a mechanical fuel pump of around 10-12 psi and modify a regulator to sense the intake pressure and vary it accordingly. A stock AMC modified as in option 3 isn't out of the question either.
Here's the big question - what's going to happen to my vacuum operated windshield wipers when I have positive intake pressure?
Mark0 -
Freakin' Sweet!!
I have one of those supercharged '54 Kaiser Manhattans, and let me tell you, that blower is the cat's @$$--- WHEN IT WORKS. We had our engine rebuilt this past summer by a K-F clubbie who wasn't familiar with the '54 blower setup, and now it doesn't work. When I kick it down (not the kickdown for the overdrive, but the blower), the engine burbles as if it's either getting too much gas or not enough, so I have to back off on the throttle. I suspect it's the solenoid; however, if anyone out there is familiar with the problem I've just described, please feel free to comment. There is an EXCELLENT tech website at http://www.vs57.com that goes into detail on how to repair your solenoid if you can't get a replacement.0 -
Mark,
I actually have quite a lot of experience with doing the blow-thru turbocharged engines. My own personal experience has been using
the Aeromotive A1000 fuel pump with the Mallory #4309 3-port with
return fuel pressure regulator as it has a port to adjust the pressure
via a hose connection to the discharge tube between the turbo (or
the blower in your case) and the carburetor bonnet. Aeromotive does
make a real nice adjustable regulator #13204 that would work better
than the Mallory but it cost quite a bit more.
My preference was to go overkill here as you do not want to be lean
at any point while under boost. Since you are running lower boost
levels ( I was up to 22lbs at one point on the Ford 302's I was doing)
you may want to consider the modified mechanical pump and the
Mallory regulator for safety.
Studebaker always use the mechanical pump that the back side of
the diaphram was boost referenced like the Kaiser. Several of the Studebaker guys I know have been in the 12's at 116 mph with this
setup and no electric pump so it does work very well.
Studebaker also blew thru the Carter AFB with special modifications.
These were specially made with items like special milling to supply boost
to the throttle shafts and no externally drilled vacuum bleeds. The
biggest issue is that you need to make special floats for the Carter AFB
to prevent them from crushing. Ted Harbit uses the floats from Toyota
2bbl carbs and attaches them to the Carter AFB arms. Also I have seen
guys use the floats from Thermoquads with some mods. As a side note
I have been told that the floats were more prone to crush not from
high boost but from engine backfires.
One last item is that you will definatly need to upgrade the fuel tank
pickup to at least 1/2" diameter. Fuel lines will also need to be larger
1/2" for both the feed and the return from the regulator. Restriction
will be your worst enemy here so don't make the common mistake of
using a smaller return line/ I have seen this cause the fuel pressure
to build and stay high after a high boost run causing the engine to
run extremly rich. I know all of this info is pretty simple but you would
not believe how many times I go to help someone out and they have
missed these items.
Good luck with the setup. I can't wait to see this monster run! If you
need some help email me as I love the idea of boosting one of these
old Hudson torque-monsters.
PaceRacer500 -
i'll soon post some pics of these aussie made hudson performance parts and motors.0
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I own one of these manifolds and a two piece head, thes were found on a motor left in a paddock over 10 years ago when i bought 2 57 Hudson Hornet "6"s. These parts were desiged and built in Sydney by Clive Gibson and Harry Bink for speed boat racing in the 1960's. These boats were supercharged and the hudson heads were not strong enough and kept blowing head gaskets. A 4" bore was tried but they had cylinder cave in problems at high boost, a 15/16 bore worked fine. I have two of these old boat motors and will build one the they did in the 60's.0
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Mark,
your vacuum operated wipers will work exactly like my power brakes
in my 2004 Subaru FXT turbo 2.5... non existint while boost is present!
First time I took the FXT to Muncie dragway and ran it out in the 1/4 mile
I found myself about 2 cars ahead of my opposition during the 1st round
of eliminations. I tried to "Scrub" off some speed and reel him in closed
to tighten the gap at the finish line but the brake pedel was like trying
to push a brick wall with my fat let foot. I decided to turn on the A/C at
the last minute to engage the compressor to kill some MPH and it worked
much to my surprise.
Next round I made sure I was more ready by using the parking brake down
track! Cable operated and not relient on boost pressure to override it.
It allowed me to keep close on the compeition. Too bad the temp dropped
faster than I could anticipate.
I suspect that the wipers will not be able to work under boost but my
question is if its wet enough to need wipers then you may not want to
be in the "Boost" in the first place as the rearend may be swaping the
front!
PaceRacer500 -
I used to have a 1984 Subaru Turbo Brat (rare beasty). I put a cruise control on it and sure enough on the highway going up a hill with the turbo starting to kick in there was no speed control from the vacuum operated servo. So looking in my '84 Service manual there was a section about the '84 Factory cruise control for Turbo vehicles. It used a little venturi device that created a vacuum by using the positive manifold pressue going by a valve that opened with turbo boost. For about $30 I bought it and it worked like a dream. Most cruise controls today are electrically operated (although some aftermarkets vacuum actuated can still be purchased) and this is no longer necessary. However, I imagine some type of aftermarket gizmo must have been and may still be around to do the same as the Subaru part.0
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PaceRacer50 wrote:Mark,
your vacuum operated wipers will work exactly like my power brakes
in my 2004 Subaru FXT turbo 2.5... non existint while boost is present!
First time I took the FXT to Muncie dragway and ran it out in the 1/4 mile
I found myself about 2 cars ahead of my opposition during the 1st round
of eliminations. I tried to "Scrub" off some speed and reel him in closed
to tighten the gap at the finish line but the brake pedel was like trying
to push a brick wall with my fat let foot. I decided to turn on the A/C at
the last minute to engage the compressor to kill some MPH and it worked
much to my surprise.
Next round I made sure I was more ready by using the parking brake down
track! Cable operated and not relient on boost pressure to override it.
It allowed me to keep close on the compeition. Too bad the temp dropped
faster than I could anticipate.
I suspect that the wipers will not be able to work under boost but my
question is if its wet enough to need wipers then you may not want to
be in the "Boost" in the first place as the rearend may be swaping the
front!
PaceRacer50
That's pretty funny, because I can relate. I once hung into a chevrolet LT-1 until I completely ran out of vacuum in the power brakes. When I tried to apply the brakes, I found my posterior raising out of the seat trying to stop. Looooong straightaway that let me wind the ol' girl up to the maximum. I have no idea how fast I was going. I had been driving with "one foot on the brake, and one on the gas" a bit too long.
Good advice on the fuel pump arrangement. I really want to run it as mechanicly as possible and am leaning toward the boost compensated fuel pump such as the Kaiser and Stude. This isn't going to be a ultra-wicked Hudson and I doubt I'll be going any over 4 psi, which should be well within the range of a mechanical fuel pump - if I can find the right fuel pump.
I do have a question. Should the fuel pump compensating line come from the air horn, or the intake manifold? I'd like to hear some discussion on the pressure differentials above and below the venturis under high boost.
Thanks,
Mark0 -
50C8DAN wrote:I used to have a 1984 Subaru Turbo Brat (rare beasty). I put a cruise control on it and sure enough on the highway going up a hill with the turbo starting to kick in there was no speed control from the vacuum operated servo. So looking in my '84 Service manual there was a section about the '84 Factory cruise control for Turbo vehicles. It used a little venturi device that created a vacuum by using the positive manifold pressue going by a valve that opened with turbo boost. For about $30 I bought it and it worked like a dream. Most cruise controls today are electrically operated (although some aftermarkets vacuum actuated can still be purchased) and this is no longer necessary. However, I imagine some type of aftermarket gizmo must have been and may still be around to do the same as the Subaru part.
I was kinda joking about the wipers - LOL. I had a feeling they'd stop dead in their tracks when the boost kicked in.
I recently took a wiper motor apart just to see what was there. The little valve that determines which way the wiper swiper moves depends on vacuum for its seal. Once the vacuum falls below a certain level, the valve looses its seal and whatever vacuum is left - doesn't know where to go. Boost pressure would actually cause these valve disks to separate and come to a screetching halt, literally.
I will say this, most of what makes you think your wiper motor is no good - is that these valve ports get plugged up with crud. Its not that your vacuum seals are no good, the vacuum just doesn't know where to go. I cleaned one out and put it on the Wasp, dang things work like a champ! A pump shot of light oil makes this crudding up worse in the long run, but helps the little valve disks seal up in the short run.
Note to would-be supercharger Hudsonites - plan on electrical wipers!
Mark0 -
Mark,
Good point on the point to reference the pump or regulator line.
Both Studebaker and Kaiser used the Supercharger discharge outlet
and your's looks to have a outlet pre-tapped there. I really could not
tell by your pictures but I know the Kaiser based McCulloch blower
set up inside and out from past experience and I know first hand
that is where they referenced their fuel pump boost point.
Kaiser and Studebaker used a 5/16" male pipe tape nipple there
with a rubber line that ran into the back side of the fuel pump diaphram.
This is the safest way to boost reference the fuel pump and a regulator
if you plan on running one.
I did experiement with this on my last turbo-carb blow thru 302 Powered
Mustang to see how it responded.
Look for a privite message in your in-box within the next few minutes.
thanks,
PaceRacer500 -
Hi Mark
A friend give me a intake turbocharger 4bll carb combination
that I am going to try to put on my 54 hollywood in the future. It is
from a 4.3 Ltr V6 . My idea was to use the Hudson single 2 barrel intake
make an adapter to bolt the turbo intake to single 2 barrel Hudson intake.
But I dont know if I will have enough room for the exhaust pipes.And
clearence for hood to close. Hudsonly duncan0 -
Mark, I just sent you an e-mail about the Turbocharged 262 engine with pictures in hopes that you will print the report and show the pictures of the Install process and the testing of the Home-made-kit. Hudson engines wake-up very quickly. (hope we dont blow her up)
Thanks Rudy B,0
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