My Disc Brake installation
As I promised on another thread, I will tell my experience at installing a disc brake setup on my 1949 Super Six four door. This will be very lengthy, so if you bore easily move on to another thread..LOL.
My brakes were very good, no leaks, smooth drums, not too thin, rebuilt wheel cylinders with stainless liners. I found that rapid hard stops as experienced in heavy freeway traffic left me with a hard pedal and little braking action. Once cooled off, they were great again. perhaps I should have tried different compound lining ?.. hind sight is 20-20
I decided to upgrade my front brakes to disc.. Not a quick decision, but one that took a year or so. I talked to others that have done it. I sent out emails to several people, some offering kits. I got one answer. Richard Pridemore of NC. I was supposed to talk to him at Pigeon Forge, but forgot to take his phone number with me. I was also busy running my mouth and drooling over the other members cars. I never did hook up with him. After returning home, I emailed him again and ordered his "kit". Price was $400.00 plus postage. I think that was about $8.00 . It all fits into a flat rate USPS Priority box. Richard is a really nice guy, but his long suit is brevity. Don't expect long emails with lots of details. One and two sentence replys are all you should expect.. That's OK ,because I have a AST degree in Mechanical engineering. (Advanced Shade Tree)
I first have to warn you that this is not a box of parts you install on a Saturday and go to a cruise on Saturday night. The kit is just a few parts. You will need to purchase a great deal of the parts locally and some mail order. Also some machine and alterations are going to be done.I knew this going in, so no problem. The brakes are large enough to work well on a #3000 + car.
The "kit" is comprised of a beautiful pair of new machined hubs with 1/2" studs installed. One pair of substantial caliper brackets, Grade 8 Mounting bolts,nuts and washers. One Master cylinder mounting bracket and an offset brake push rod adapter. There were several pictures as well as a list of parts you will need. Part numbers and sources are also noted. Also a set of installation instructions.
Just enough to get me in trouble!
You start by removing the brake drum, then remove the flex brake line at the chassis. Remove the four bolts holding the backing plate and take the whole mess off as an assembly.Save the nut and washer off your spindle, you will need it. The new hubs are machined to accept Hudson OEM bearings and races. I opted to buy all new ones and leave my old ones in the old hubs for later use. Install the caliper bracket on the spindle with the supplied bolts. Make sure you push the bracket up as high as it goes. The holes will allow it to move a little. I had a problem with my left one because it sat a little low and the inner edge of the hub dragged on the bracket. Install your bearings and races in the new hubs and reinstall on the spindle.
The calipers are mid 80's GM as well as the pads. These came off a car of similar weight as the Hudson, so should be adaquate. They are cheap at Advanced Auto, but the core charge is $15.00 each. So there was an extra $30.00 I hadn't anticipated. Don't buy the most expensive ones, because you are going to modify them and void any waranty. The calipers need to have a groove ground into them to allow the flex hose to mount at the correct angle. Also you will have to grind a bit off the outer edge to clear the Hudson wheel. My wheels are the early riveted 15 wheels. Maybe the later welded wheels are different? I had a dickens of a time removing metal to get the wheels to turn without grinding on various parts of the caliper. I bet the pre step down 16" would not have this problem. By the time I was done, I know I would not be able to take them back as tradeins unless I covered them with undercoating or something!. I had the wheels off several times removing more and more to correct the grinding noise. A small spacer between the wheel and hub would cure it, but I wanted to keep the lug nut thread exposure as high as I can. I also didn't want to alter the wheels. I want to be able to use any Hudson 15" wheel. The part that forms the slots at the intersection of the inner and outer wheel is the high spot that hits.
He didn't mention lug nuts in the parts list, but it's obvious that you won't be using the bolts any more. The lug nuts I bought were 1/2 with a 3/4"outer" most of the ones I had in my spare parts bin were 13/16". That way I can use the same lug wrench for front and rear.The nuts I got have a shoulder on the taper end. They don't get caught up inside the impact wrench socket.
The rotors are also bought locally at Advance Auto parts. As I recall,they fit a Mitsubishi 3000. They have multiple holes in them for different applications. They must fit other makes as well. The stud holes may be metric and will have to be very slightly filed to fit over the 1/2" studs. I found one set of rotors needed fileing and a second set did not. The rotors also have to be put into a lathe and .070" removed the outer edge to reduce the overall diameter by.140". If you don't, they will bind up on the caliper bolts. I sent one set of rotors to a machinest and he got lost! After a couple weeks, i bought a second set, these were the ones that didn't need the holes filed. Same part number, same mfg, and same store.. go figure..A DIFFERENT Machine shop, three hours and $20.00 later I had my rotors. Guess who gets my business next time? (Next time!) I'm still trying to track down the first machinest and my rotors. LOL.
The hub is machined to accept the rotor and has a smaller center than the original Hudson hub. The wheel does not seat on the center as original. You will have to be sure to draw up your lug nuts evenly so the wheel centers. With the new lug nuts, It wasn't a problem.
The Master cylinder is off a similar GM car with drum rear and disc front. It bolts to the angle bracket suppied by Pridemore. Since the master cylinder is thicker or wider, than the original, it is offset to the inside of the car, hence the offset pushrod adapter.You will have to use a ball cutter to change the pocket in the master cylinder piston to match the Hudson Push rod. Here's where it gets hairy.. You have to remove the original master clyinder brackets and by doing that, you have destroyed them. I also removed most of the parts from the manual override system. You won't need that since you now have a dual chamber master cylinder.The new bracket must be welded to the chassis where the original came off. Not much help from the instructions, other than make sure the piston is all the way out. I eventually got a position that seemed to work. I'm not real happy with the pedal .. it seems to engage a bit lower and closer to the floor than I am comfortible with. It's just the mechanical linkage that limits this. I've tried to adjust the push rod, but that causes the brakes to drag. Sooo..I must have it at the optimum position. You will need to buy two residual valves, for the lines and some adapters. I ordered mine from Speedway Motors. They have an on line catalog. The Napa store sells the adapters under the Balkamp name. my Napastore is a mess. Very little inventory, They sell lottery tickets and money orders. Almost like a Seven Eleven!!Took me two weeks to get all the grease seals, line adapters and bearings. IF I did it again, I would order on line. You need the line adapters to mate to the master cylinder and residual valves. Also not mentioned in the parts list, You will also need to buy fittings to adapt from 3/16" flare to 1/8" pipe (four of them) . Advanced had them on the shelf. I only needed one, because my junk drawer had three.
Bleeding with my little vacuum hand held pump wasn't enough. I used a heavy electrical wire tied to the brake pedal at the floorboard. Ran it around the tie rod. I tied the other around my foot .Pulling the wire pulls the brake pedal down. Worked for me. Don't forget to untie it from your foot before you walk away. Much better than asking the wife to help.
The brake light switch is still on the old master cylinder. I used a machanical switch to operate the brake lights. I happened to have a 1928-29 Model A ford brake light switch , So I bolted it to the floor and used one of the springs I removed from the manual brake overide to pull it on.
I now have good disc brakes. I can't buy replacement parts and just put them on. That was one of my objectives, but on the other hand,I also don't plan on doing a brake job on the road either.
All in all, the brackets and hubs alone are worth the price. Now to adapt a Power brake booster...:D
PS I have a couple pictures if anyone wants them.
Davew
My brakes were very good, no leaks, smooth drums, not too thin, rebuilt wheel cylinders with stainless liners. I found that rapid hard stops as experienced in heavy freeway traffic left me with a hard pedal and little braking action. Once cooled off, they were great again. perhaps I should have tried different compound lining ?.. hind sight is 20-20
I decided to upgrade my front brakes to disc.. Not a quick decision, but one that took a year or so. I talked to others that have done it. I sent out emails to several people, some offering kits. I got one answer. Richard Pridemore of NC. I was supposed to talk to him at Pigeon Forge, but forgot to take his phone number with me. I was also busy running my mouth and drooling over the other members cars. I never did hook up with him. After returning home, I emailed him again and ordered his "kit". Price was $400.00 plus postage. I think that was about $8.00 . It all fits into a flat rate USPS Priority box. Richard is a really nice guy, but his long suit is brevity. Don't expect long emails with lots of details. One and two sentence replys are all you should expect.. That's OK ,because I have a AST degree in Mechanical engineering. (Advanced Shade Tree)
I first have to warn you that this is not a box of parts you install on a Saturday and go to a cruise on Saturday night. The kit is just a few parts. You will need to purchase a great deal of the parts locally and some mail order. Also some machine and alterations are going to be done.I knew this going in, so no problem. The brakes are large enough to work well on a #3000 + car.
The "kit" is comprised of a beautiful pair of new machined hubs with 1/2" studs installed. One pair of substantial caliper brackets, Grade 8 Mounting bolts,nuts and washers. One Master cylinder mounting bracket and an offset brake push rod adapter. There were several pictures as well as a list of parts you will need. Part numbers and sources are also noted. Also a set of installation instructions.
Just enough to get me in trouble!
You start by removing the brake drum, then remove the flex brake line at the chassis. Remove the four bolts holding the backing plate and take the whole mess off as an assembly.Save the nut and washer off your spindle, you will need it. The new hubs are machined to accept Hudson OEM bearings and races. I opted to buy all new ones and leave my old ones in the old hubs for later use. Install the caliper bracket on the spindle with the supplied bolts. Make sure you push the bracket up as high as it goes. The holes will allow it to move a little. I had a problem with my left one because it sat a little low and the inner edge of the hub dragged on the bracket. Install your bearings and races in the new hubs and reinstall on the spindle.
The calipers are mid 80's GM as well as the pads. These came off a car of similar weight as the Hudson, so should be adaquate. They are cheap at Advanced Auto, but the core charge is $15.00 each. So there was an extra $30.00 I hadn't anticipated. Don't buy the most expensive ones, because you are going to modify them and void any waranty. The calipers need to have a groove ground into them to allow the flex hose to mount at the correct angle. Also you will have to grind a bit off the outer edge to clear the Hudson wheel. My wheels are the early riveted 15 wheels. Maybe the later welded wheels are different? I had a dickens of a time removing metal to get the wheels to turn without grinding on various parts of the caliper. I bet the pre step down 16" would not have this problem. By the time I was done, I know I would not be able to take them back as tradeins unless I covered them with undercoating or something!. I had the wheels off several times removing more and more to correct the grinding noise. A small spacer between the wheel and hub would cure it, but I wanted to keep the lug nut thread exposure as high as I can. I also didn't want to alter the wheels. I want to be able to use any Hudson 15" wheel. The part that forms the slots at the intersection of the inner and outer wheel is the high spot that hits.
He didn't mention lug nuts in the parts list, but it's obvious that you won't be using the bolts any more. The lug nuts I bought were 1/2 with a 3/4"outer" most of the ones I had in my spare parts bin were 13/16". That way I can use the same lug wrench for front and rear.The nuts I got have a shoulder on the taper end. They don't get caught up inside the impact wrench socket.
The rotors are also bought locally at Advance Auto parts. As I recall,they fit a Mitsubishi 3000. They have multiple holes in them for different applications. They must fit other makes as well. The stud holes may be metric and will have to be very slightly filed to fit over the 1/2" studs. I found one set of rotors needed fileing and a second set did not. The rotors also have to be put into a lathe and .070" removed the outer edge to reduce the overall diameter by.140". If you don't, they will bind up on the caliper bolts. I sent one set of rotors to a machinest and he got lost! After a couple weeks, i bought a second set, these were the ones that didn't need the holes filed. Same part number, same mfg, and same store.. go figure..A DIFFERENT Machine shop, three hours and $20.00 later I had my rotors. Guess who gets my business next time? (Next time!) I'm still trying to track down the first machinest and my rotors. LOL.
The hub is machined to accept the rotor and has a smaller center than the original Hudson hub. The wheel does not seat on the center as original. You will have to be sure to draw up your lug nuts evenly so the wheel centers. With the new lug nuts, It wasn't a problem.
The Master cylinder is off a similar GM car with drum rear and disc front. It bolts to the angle bracket suppied by Pridemore. Since the master cylinder is thicker or wider, than the original, it is offset to the inside of the car, hence the offset pushrod adapter.You will have to use a ball cutter to change the pocket in the master cylinder piston to match the Hudson Push rod. Here's where it gets hairy.. You have to remove the original master clyinder brackets and by doing that, you have destroyed them. I also removed most of the parts from the manual override system. You won't need that since you now have a dual chamber master cylinder.The new bracket must be welded to the chassis where the original came off. Not much help from the instructions, other than make sure the piston is all the way out. I eventually got a position that seemed to work. I'm not real happy with the pedal .. it seems to engage a bit lower and closer to the floor than I am comfortible with. It's just the mechanical linkage that limits this. I've tried to adjust the push rod, but that causes the brakes to drag. Sooo..I must have it at the optimum position. You will need to buy two residual valves, for the lines and some adapters. I ordered mine from Speedway Motors. They have an on line catalog. The Napa store sells the adapters under the Balkamp name. my Napastore is a mess. Very little inventory, They sell lottery tickets and money orders. Almost like a Seven Eleven!!Took me two weeks to get all the grease seals, line adapters and bearings. IF I did it again, I would order on line. You need the line adapters to mate to the master cylinder and residual valves. Also not mentioned in the parts list, You will also need to buy fittings to adapt from 3/16" flare to 1/8" pipe (four of them) . Advanced had them on the shelf. I only needed one, because my junk drawer had three.
Bleeding with my little vacuum hand held pump wasn't enough. I used a heavy electrical wire tied to the brake pedal at the floorboard. Ran it around the tie rod. I tied the other around my foot .Pulling the wire pulls the brake pedal down. Worked for me. Don't forget to untie it from your foot before you walk away. Much better than asking the wife to help.
The brake light switch is still on the old master cylinder. I used a machanical switch to operate the brake lights. I happened to have a 1928-29 Model A ford brake light switch , So I bolted it to the floor and used one of the springs I removed from the manual brake overide to pull it on.
I now have good disc brakes. I can't buy replacement parts and just put them on. That was one of my objectives, but on the other hand,I also don't plan on doing a brake job on the road either.
All in all, the brackets and hubs alone are worth the price. Now to adapt a Power brake booster...:D
PS I have a couple pictures if anyone wants them.
Davew
0
Comments
-
by all means show us the pictures
mike0 -
Dave,
Thanks for taking the time to pass on such a detailed report. I have been considering a disk upgrade in the future, so it is helpful to know all that is involved.
Matt0 -
Thanks for all the info Dave. After reading all that, I'm glad I got the LaBudds conversion. All the parts(except residual valve) were included, and they fit like they were suppose to. I would say that on just converting the front over, it could be done in 2 hours, 'cause it took me about 2 and1/2, but I was reading the instructions over several times, and making sure of all the details as I assembled them. The only difference was, I converted the entire system to disc, so I made all new stainless steel lines, and installed a large volume mastercylinder, which added more time to the project, but the front install was less than 3 hours. I'm not even sure if Mr. LaBudd offers a kit any more, since it was back in 2000, when I installed mine. The thing about those close tolerences is, when you draw a line to cut something, cutting to the left of the line, the right of the line, or on top of the line, makes the difference of whether it will fit or not. You may want to put a light coat of paint on the inside of your wheels, then go out and make some hard left and right turns, to see if your wheel will flex enough to rub. Anyway, glad you got your system up and running, and thanks again for all the info.
Wes0 -
wkitchens wrote:Thanks for all the info Dave. After reading all that, I'm glad I got the LaBudds conversion. All the parts(except residual valve) were included, and they fit like they were suppose to. I would say that on just converting the front over, it could be done in 2 hours, 'cause it took me about 2 and1/2, but I was reading the instructions over several times, and making sure of all the details as I assembled them. The only difference was, I converted the entire system to disc, so I made all new stainless steel lines, and installed a large volume mastercylinder, which added more time to the project, but the front install was less than 3 hours. I'm not even sure if Mr. LaBudd offers a kit any more, since it was back in 2000, when I installed mine. The thing about those close tolerences is, when you draw a line to cut something, cutting to the left of the line, the right of the line, or on top of the line, makes the difference of whether it will fit or not. You may want to put a light coat of paint on the inside of your wheels, then go out and make some hard left and right turns, to see if your wheel will flex enough to rub. Anyway, glad you got your system up and running, and thanks again for all the info.
Wes
You are right, If I had all the parts modified and on the bench, two to two and a half hours would do the entire job.. But with the clearance problems. what should have been a quickie ended up taking several days what with all the other things we gotta do..
Wes, I did just that. I used some flat black quick dry to find the high spots. The wheels do flex a lot more than a person would think. For some reason my left front was more of a problem than the right front. I swapped wheels just to make sure I didn't have a "rogue" wheel.
Labudd is a fellow OB Chapter member, but since I didn't hear from him, I figured as you did, that he no longer does the kit.
Since I have already made some hard to reverse mods, I may just as well install a swinging pedal and booster. A few years ago, I threw several setups away that came out of Camaros. Wasn't racing anymore and no one around here wanted them.. Oh well...Now i have another reason to prowl the junk yards.
Davew0 -
Wes
10-4 on the La Budd conversion! I have installed three of his kits and have found them well engineered and easy to install. I have installed two with the stock Hudson master cylinder and the addition of residual valves (10psi rear and 2psi front) and the manual override system to the rear brakes is retained.
My 49 sedan has been converted in this manner and has been working trouble free for 20,000 miles.
The third vehicle I converted was with a La Budds system and a 1954 Hudson power brake swing pedal assembly installed on a 1951 Hornet, and adapting a 7 inch dual vacuum boster and dual master cylinder from Master Power Brakes in NC, phone # 888-249-9424 , to the fire wall a safe dual system was created.
With this conversion you remove the OE pedal assy., master cylinder and override system from the underside of the vehicle with no residual valves in the system needed.
If you would like more information on the La Budd system give Bill LaBudd a call at 352-753-6167.
Fred0 -
"All in all, the brackets and hubs alone are worth the price. Now to adapt a Power brake booster..."
In 1981-85 the Chevy Malibu offered a hydro booster (smaller-sized option to a power booster; & powered via lines from the power steering pump, and no vaccuum line is essential).
HYDRO BOOSTER, part # 527211 at Advance I believe.
MASTER CYL, part # 101984
I will be using these options on my 1954.
NOTE: the Chevy dual-piston calipers from about 98 forward do not offer any more pressure than the stock single piston calipers, according to my calculations.
HOWEVER, concerning the stock, single-piston (2.5" dia) Malibu caliper, one might optionally purchase the US Brake single-piston (2.75") calipers; part #'s 7241-9001 & 741-9002, $79.99 ea + shpg.
http://secureperformanceorder.com/usbrakestore/getsubclasses.cfm?ClassID=31&CategoryID=3
http://www.usbrake.com/
These US Brake calipers yield 20% more pressure onto the rotors for the same amount of foot work. I'm seriously considering purchasing mine within a couple days from 45 Auto Salvage, Milan, Tn 731-686-3399
Good luck0 -
I was looking at the hydroboost brake cylinder on my 96 Safari van. That is a very small unit and could be adapted .....as soon as I get my PS set up. haven't made any progress on that .. We have a Orange Blossom Meet at Old Town near Disney on Saturday. perhaps I'll connect with the fellow that said he thought he could find me one..0
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To keep things simple, I installed a dual disc mastercylinder, that I got from Master Power Brakes, in the original location, and even used all the original linkage. I just made a new bracket, and welded it to the frame. I attached a picture showing this upgrade. I've taken the car all apart, AGAIN,and am now painting, and detailing as I re-assemble. I hope to have the front suspension assembled by May, and then I can start at least trailering it to shows and meets, to let people see my modifications. I chose May, because a local Street-Rod club has their Annual show then. Last year I won Second Place with my Vette, but this year, my goal is a First Place in the "Under Construction" catagory with my '48.0
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i too installed the Pridemore kit.
i've been driving it around a little bit the last couple of days,and i'm not overly impressed with it just yet.
the pads aren't broken in yet really,which could be part of it,but looking at those large bore calipers makes me wish i had seen those before i bought the recommended units.
i also wish there was a way to keep the "triple safe brakes" feature,even though the dual master is the modern day equivalent.0 -
I've been wanting to upgrade the stock drum brakes on the 50 Pacemaker
because they will not hold the engine aginst the converter with the line
lock engages.
My personal opnion is the LaBudd kit will work if I change the master
cylinder and the set up on Wkitchen's car looks very clean.
Wkitchens what type of proportional valve is that mounted under
the master cylinder or am I seeing the residue valves?
Was there a specific master cylinder part number you used for this
installation?
I planned on doing the conversion this winter so its ready for spring
flogging.
This thread has provided quite a lot of useful information.
PaceRacer500 -
Last year I spoke with Bill Labudd and he was still making the kits. I would guess they are still available.
Matt0 -
PaceRacer50, I installed a MC390545M Mastercylinder, which has a 1-1/8 in bore, to move the extra fluid for quad-disc, a VL3359 proportioning valve, a BL3350 bracket kit for the Prop-Valve, and 2 VL3702K (2lb BLUE) residual valves. All this was purchased from Master Power Brakes. I attached 3 pictures, to try and show the set-up from different angles.0
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I just listed my leftover brake parts on ebay. They might be a nice upgrade for The Pacemaker or Wasp.
Hey Wes, what front rotors were used on yours? Did you just machine the drums off your hubs? Or did I miss that part in an earlier post?
DaveW0 -
Wkitchens,
thank you for the information! excellent phots.
this will definatly go a long way in helping me out.
thanks again,
PaceRacer500 -
Dave, you'll send the original hubs to Mr. LaBudd, he'll fit the rotors, and re-fit for new bearings. I attached a picture of the kit, as I received it. It comes complete with hubs, calipers,lugs and nuts,bearings, hoses, clips, detailed instructions, EVERYTHING! Second picture is of the completed install, just before I dissassembled it, for the cleaning and painting. As I put this car back together, I'm going to take closer, better pictures. Pictures just look better when all the parts are clean and shiny.0
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I found the following article to be extremely interesting and it was written by a VERY knowledgeable individual. It has helped me in 3 or 4 areas all ready.
http://www.hotrodheaven.com/tech/brakes/brakes1_index.htm0 -
Would any of these conversion methods translate to a '47 pickup front end? Sorry if that's a total newbie question - I'm trying to decide if I want to rebuild what I have or slide in a later model clip. My only concern with special rotors is replacing them some day because I do intend to drive a lot when I get rolling.
0 -
"All in all, the brackets and hubs alone are worth the price. Now to adapt a Power brake booster..."
In 1981-85 the Chevy Malibu offered a hydro booster (smaller-sized option to a power booster; & powered via lines from the power steering pump, and no vaccuum line is essential).
HYDRO BOOSTER, part # 527211 at Advance I believe (after further research, I'm now thinking of no booster at all, like Wes did)
MASTER CYL, part # 101984 (careful here; be sure that the bore size is not less than 7/8" per US Brake, for the larger caliper w/2.75" bore caliper); I'm still researching this; will probably select a 1 - 1 1/8" bore size, perhaps from a C1500 truck or Suburban.
This conversion is on my 1954.
NOTE: the Chevy dual-piston calipers from about 98 forward do not offer any more pressure than the stock, single piston calipers, according to my calculations.
HOWEVER, concerning the stock, single-piston (2.5" dia) GM Metric caliper, one might optionally purchase the US Brake single-piston (2.75") calipers; part #'s 7241-9001 & 741-9002, $79.99 ea + shpg.
http://secureperformanceorder.com/usbrakestore/getsubclasses.cfm?ClassID=31&CategoryID=3
http://www.usbrake.com/
These larger-than-stock US Brake calipers yield 20% more pressure onto the rotors for the same amount of foot work. I'm seriously considering purchasing mine soon from 45 Auto Salvage, Milan, Tn 731-686-3399
Still digging...........0 -
US Brake is currently out of stock of the right calipers.
LANE AUTOMOTIVE has plenty in stock now.
I recommend and I'd order them from:
LANE AUTOMOTIVE, Inc, Watervliet, MI
(269) 463-41130 -
BOOZOO is not the only one looking for information on disc brakes for a 1946-1947. Has anyone done this? Also, has anyone updated a 46-47 to later front suspension parts? I would like to kknow what is involved with this swap. Any info? Thanx.0
-
I believe that the Pridemore kit will adapt to 46-47. You can contact
Richard Pridemore at 336-423-8703 or e-mail: lbpatstokes@netzero.com
for more info.0
This discussion has been closed.
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