MSD-Boost Timing Master

super651

Hope this helps on the info for the #5462 MSD Boost timing Master as asked for from Mark.



LBS-of Boost Knob-setting ( for amount of retard)

(1) (2) (3)

1 1 2 3

2 2 4 6

3 3 6 9

4 4 8 12

5 5 10 15

6 6 12 15



My 262 is set at 4 degree at flywheel and due to week springs in the dist i have to run it at position (3) to keep it from pinging ( we will install stronger springs so we can run in position (2) and have more adjustment )

Due to so many varables in engines ,fuel, elevation ,etc. adjustments could be 1-2-3 on the dash mounted control knob.

Example-- the knob is set on (3) and at a boost of 5-lbs the retard will set its self for 12 degrees, from the flywheel setting.

It does work and with 4-5 -6 lbsof boot the eng will pull Strong,not like another 262 that i have driven.

This 46 is driven every other day and it is my Pick-up-Truck. This test was to see how it will react to the 308 eng that we are building to put in our 51 SUPER-6-Brougham.



Hope this is of help to all Thanks Rudy and Rick

super651

Made a mistake. The # to the left 1-6 is boost and the 1-2-3 to the right is the amount of retard with lbs of boost.

Thanks Rudy.

[Deleted User]

Rudy,

I have had great success with these on jy turbocharged engines since

it allows you to run around all week with the knob to safe setting and

protect the engine. When ever the need arised or some racing action

was going on more power was just a twist of the knob away.

When tuning my timing in I went out on the back roads and used the biggest

hill I could find. This allowed the engine to load down more than normal.

I would make a hard run up the hill in second gear from a low rpm and adjust

the know until the pinging went away. This would become my normal driving

setting.

The one part I would really like to be available brand new that would

compliment the BTM is a billet MSD magnetic trigger distributor for the

Hudson big six. One that is easy to service, precisionly machined, has

modern bearings, takes a bigger diameter cap to help prevent spark

scatter and gives us the ability to phase the rotor & lock out the timing

without having to make any special parts.

Good luck with the tuning!

PaceRacer50

super651

Paceracer, That sounds good. I will talk to my son Rick thisweekend about that. He is one of the guys that have built and tested the MSD Mags found on ALL of the race cars on all kinds of tracks and has to be on hand at some of them to help all of the Racers.( what a boring job, to have to go where all the Action is,and get paid fore it ,Ha,Ha )

He just took a dist.from a amc-jeep with 258 -6 cyl and cut the shaft off and pined the Hudson lower drive tang to it. It is Elctron. type (with No Cross-Fire)

I will be out of town for the next 3-weeks and when i return we will Run some test on the Dist , It fits in the same bore as the Hudson,and looks good.

[Deleted User]

PaceRacer50 wrote:

Rudy,

The one part I would really like to be available brand new that would

compliment the BTM is a billet MSD magnetic trigger distributor for the

Hudson big six. One that is easy to service, precisionly machined, has

modern bearings, takes a bigger diameter cap to help prevent spark

scatter and gives us the ability to phase the rotor & lock out the timing

without having to make any special parts.

Good luck with the tuning!

PaceRacer50

The distributor replacement that you mention is available now. I have played around with GM HEI distributors in various flathead 6 applications. I don't have one running or put together right now, but I do know its possible.



The recipe is simple, a Vega 4 cylinder HEI cast housing with Buick V6 "Even Fire" internals All HEI internals will interchange as the only difference between the Vega and any other HEI is what I call the "pin ring" or reluctor/trigger mechanism. You can bolt the Buick "even fire" internals to the Vega body. The Vega body is short and compact, also having the same housing stem diameter of the original Hudson distributor. Once you have the V6 internals mounted into the Vega housing, it then becomes apparent the shaft has to be machined to Hudson dimentions in terms of the drive tang length/position and the clearance for the center counterweight. The extra length of the V6 shaft in the Vega housing allows plenty of material for the required machining to reach the oil pump drive and clear the center counterweight. The use of the HEI opens the door to all the modern ignition modifications to the maximum without going crank triggered.



I love the GM HEI, however it has a drawback that simply has to be addressed before you apply it to any flathead inline engine. It has in excess of 20 degrees vacuum advance. Aftermarket limiters are available and a definate need in terms of tuning it into your flathead. The first time I messed with an HEI on a flathead, this characteristic of the HEI cost me an oil pump and distributor as the sudden 20* advance produced a most destructive backfire! I'm lucky it didn't shear the teeth off the camshaft.



For external timing controllers, the static timed computer operated V6 HEI internals would be the ticket, as they have no advance mechanisms whatsoever - mechanical or vacuum. Also a good candidate would be the AMC 4.0 distributor, Rudy and some others have the experiance in this application.



Dwardo99 and SRCraftsman have seen the fitment of the HEI in the Hudson engine in person. I kinda dropped the idea when I decided to use all vintage parts, and the HEI definately does not qualify as vintage. I'm looking for a way to control the timing under boost using a Hudson original distributor with Pertronix running on 6 volts - believe me, that's a challenge!



Mark Hudson

[Deleted User]

Rick Pridemore is developing a Hudson HEI solution he sent me pics setup looks pretty nice.

[Deleted User]

Mark,

I have had nightmares with HEI's in the past on Pontiac engines that I use

to drag race and would not "stepdown" to one again. I guess I've been

spoiled with MSD distributors for too long.

Right now I am using a stock Hudson distributor with points to trigger my

6AL box. I do have a Hudson distributor with a Petronix that I am going

to remove the vacuum advance and lock out the mechanical advance but

I've been strapped for time here lately.

The small diameter cap is something I do not like at all because of the

chance of spark scatter under the extreme high voltage the MSD opperates. A cap-adaptor to allow the use of the Ford 200-250 six cylinder cap would

be perfect in my opinion. (And NO I would never again use that crappy

HEI designed cap & coil combination as this where many of my failures

came from!) Guess I need to get on the lathe and make one of these

adaptors myself.

On the turbocharged engines I have had my best luck running 8 degrees

initial advance (on the balancer) with 6 degrees vacuum advance and 12

degrees mechanical advance for 26 degrees total with it all in by 2200-2400

rpm. On the street I would set the BTM to around 3 to pull out 3 degrees out per lb of boost up to 15 degrees max. I would fine tune this number like I

listed in the previous post.

At the track I would set the BTM to 1 to 1.5 to pull out 1 to 1.5 degrees per

lb of boost for a max of 15 degrees total. My feeling was that I didn't have

to drive around with the BTM set to 1 (on KILL MODE) all the time. Save the

engine for when it was really needed. A lot of exactly where I set it at the

track depended on if I was running 93 octane or 116 octane racing fuel as

the difference was notiable especially in the heat of the day.

One thing to remember is that once the engine sees boost the vacuum advance goes away since I always connected the vacuum line after the

turbo, kinda like a cheep retard. On the draw thru turbo setups I built in

the 80's I used a vacuum solenoid that allowed me to turn off the vacuum

advance to the canister in the distributor once a manifold pressure switch

would see around 2lbs of pressure. I would attach the vacuum source to

the carburator but since it never saw the boost of the turbo the vacuum

was always there.

The solenoid I used was a 3 port, Normally on- Normally off with 1 inlet and

2 outlets. I would attach the vacuum advance canister to the Normally on

port and plug off the Normally off port. The pressure switch would switch

the solnoid from the Normally on ports to the Normally off port, thereby cutting off the vacuum source.

The pressure switches are readly available thru Hobbs, Turbonetiques

and other sources. The vacuum solenoids came from Chrysler 2.2 turbo vehicles and I know that Ford and GM also use these, normally for EGR control.

I have used these rates on several of the turbocharged engines I have built

over the last 20 years and never lost one due to detonation.

Sorry to ramble on about all of this but if it helps you guys out then its great!

talk soon,

PaceRacer50

super651

Mark,Paceracer and all others intrested in the Dist.

In the next week or so MSD Corp. will be testing a Stock 308 Dist. for me.

Using a 6-AL to see if it has cross-fire inside of the cap at low and Max-RPM.

( if # 2 son can get the Hudson Dist. past the Guard to the Dyno room)

We will let youall know when the testing is completed)

Thanks to all. Rudy

[Deleted User]

Thanks Rudy!



Also, I have a question for you to discuss with #2 son. MSD makes a 6 volt conversion to run their ignitions on 6 volt vehicles, but I'm unclear on the polarity or if it will work on a positive ground system.



Product page from the MSD website:

http://www.msdignition.com/install_access_1.htm



Mark

super651

Mark, Rick said that the 6-12 Booster did not sell well and when the New Owners came in back in 05 all of them that was left went into the garbage can. ( what a shame) I try to be there garbage can but, they do not hear well. Pal Rudy.