Clutch drag ... wrong oil?

Unknown

Hi all:



My 31 Essex:



I had the clutch recorked, and it looks terrific. I put it in yesterday.



Everything seems ok. I adjusted the linkage to what seems to be correct. The clutch engages very smoothly and has no slipping.



I still have a drag problem. When I depress the clutch - the tranny keeps spinning, causing me to have to grind.



My splines looked good on the shaft, my release bearing was redone. My fingers seemed aligned.



Could it be possible that I have too thick an oil in the transmission?



Any help would be greatly appreciated. Eric

Jon B

What iquid, pray tell, have you decanted into the clutch itself? Just curious.

Unknown

Hi Jon. I put in a 140 weight gear oil. I know this is probably overly thick, but could it also contribute (causal) to drag? My logic dictates just the opposite; a thick oil would provide the viscosity to slow a spinning clutch. But there must be something I'm missing.



When I reinstalled the clutch, I used an alignment tool. That being said, given that the tranny just hangs off the engine, it strikes me that the disk will self align if you are close enough to engage the shaft.



Aside from the oil question, should I lubricate the shaft?

[Deleted User]

You didn't put the 140 gear oil in the clutch did you? Norm

Unknown

you had better flush that gear oil out and put in the correct clutch light wt oil or dextron trans fluid, that should solve your problem, SBILL ALBRIGHT

Unknown

Hi all:



Let me clarify. I put Hudsonite HET into the clutch and 140 wt gear oil into the transmission. New clutch disk. Adjustment seems good (approx. 1/4" freeplay). Clutch engages very smoothly and does not slip. My problem is getting it to disengage. I push pedal and the clutch seems to disengage (i.e. the car looses power and will come to a stop yet idling); but when I try to shift into any other gear there is grinding.



Hope this helps. Any advice?

Unknown

You need 1 to 1 1/2 in. free play in the clutch, measured at the clutch pedal!

Unknown

Hi Steve.

Please correct me if I am wrong. On a new clutch, the corks will be relatively thick to begin with. I need to maximize my throw in order to promote disengagement. If I have too much free play, the clutch will not disengage altogether (certainly more freeplay will obviate slipping?). Am I in left field here? Eric

Unknown

HI ERIC, Not an auth on this but I seem to remember reading somewhere from one of the clutch guys that too much fluid in the clutch can cause it not to release, I.E. same as getting hot and the fluid expands.Think there was something said about time for the cork to soak up also, and that on new clutchs the cork is not PERFECTLY proportioned on height and a break in period is needed.Your on track on the linkage, after break in readjust.

Jon B

Eric, this is just an 'aside'....



I understand that your problem is just getting it into gear in the first place, and I'm sure someone will come up with a good suggestion. But you do realize (I assume!) that your transmission is not synchronized, so changing gears is always going to be a bit of a "grind" -- right? Even upshifting. So, once you get the initial 'can't get it out of neutral' problem solved, you are still going to have to learn the precise speed at which you can 'slip it in', so to speak, without clashing gears.



I only mention this because (as I recall you saying) you're new to these older cars and I wasn't sure whether you were aware of this quirk of the 'stone ages' of automobile-dom.

Unknown

sounds normal to me. between gears i have to let the engine slow down before i shift or i grind.

Unknown

With the old Ford AA truck I had to "double clutch" by shifting momentarily into neutral before shifting up into the next gear. Wasn't this common before the syncromesh transmissions came into use?

Unknown

New clutch discs the corks are 1/4 " thick and should be lathe cut for uniform thickness. Without enuff freeplay the clutch will be slightly released all the time, so, you are correct on this point. Trouble is it can cause heat & slippage. You need to contact Geoff Clark, he can advise you & he KNOWS these cars.

Unknown

hello, I was having problems with my trans grinding and replaced the trans fluid with ford model a trans fluid. This has (stp) added to it and seems to help in shift grind. The second bit of advice came from an older gent that told me first gear is to take off, second is to climb hills, and third can be used for everything else. It is ok to slow down to 10mph and stay in third these splashers will just pull at any speed. Down shifting is an art that is hard to learn in an older car with straight cut gears. Try removing all the free play and see if it changes anything. ( just as a test ) Is the idle speed corect? Does this problem seem to be worse cold or hot?

Joe30Essex

Just my take...I am the 3rd owner in the family of my '30 Essex. My dad (2nd owner) told my when I got it back on the road, the secret to shifting the Essex was to 'gently let it happen, don't force it'. This has worked for me, if I am slow to 'feel it' into gear, no problems, but if I get into a hurry, the grinding starts. Check out the article by Geoff Clark in the July/August WTN-it might give you some info on what your looking for.

Unknown

HowieF wrote:

With the old Ford AA truck I had to "double clutch" by shifting momentarily into neutral before shifting up into the next gear. Wasn't this common before the syncromesh transmissions came into use?

I double clutch my 29 Hudson and it does work better then just a single clutch. It does take a little time to let the engine idle down to shift without grinding. Just don't get in a hurry shifting and it works allot better.

Geoff

Problem - gears spinning when trying to engage low from standstill with clutch depressed = usually either too much oil in clutch, oil to gooey, or corks too thick, or too little oil in transmission. Gears clashing when changing whilst driving = driving technique. If the first problem does not go away with use, you may have to fit an extra gasekt around the periphery of the clutch, to give just a little more internal clearance. Good luck,

Geoff.

Clutchguy

Who corked the clutch?.Is this one that I have done,if not,there is a particular way I do them so the chances of this occuring is minimal.As Geoff described several different things,and all must be checked.It is obvious Geoff has done many of these.

[Deleted User]

If the car is standing still, does it grind going into 1st gear? If not, the clutch is releasing. You should not have more than 8 ounces of oil in the clutch.

Unknown

Hi Rod:



Strangest thing. When the car is idling in neutral - sometimes when I shift into first the car will grind (when the clutch is depressed). Other times, it goes in smoothly. This is the case with all the gears. I suspect one of three things. 1. I wonder if I have a disparity in one or more of the fingers for the T/O bearing, 2. too much clutch oil, or 3. New corks need time to break in.

mars55

As a thought is there time interval involved here. That is if you push the clutch in and then immediately try to shift does it grind verses pushing the clutch in and then waiting say ten seconds be trying to shift

37 CTS

Yet another suggestion, my 29 does this but after warming the engine and transmission to operating temp shifting is perfomed much better. note if ambient temp is low will take even longer for oil to become warm for smooth shifting.

Unknown

HI Ya'll, VIC 29 is on target as far as shifting once in motion, had LOTS of expereince with this in old trucks in the winter.. BUT, to solve this you need to go back to SQUARE ONE and clarify things. First I'd get that 140 OUT ,you don't need it for the presures developed in a car. Solve one thing at a time, if you hold the clutch in while starting engine and it grinds going into gear you have a clutch drag from something. Did you or can you check the arms on the throw out bearing arm for wear?Can you observe how far the throw out bearing is moved ? Anybody know how far it should on his car? On linkage, all these parts are old and have a bit of wear here and there that multiplies thru the system. With a reasonable amt of floorboard clearance I would adjust the rest of the linkage to a point where you just have barely NO CONTACT going FORWARD at the throwout bearing fork, that will give you maximum release as far as linkage. If that don't work then go to the next phase. Don't jump around here and there,you'll never get it solved that way

[Deleted User]

Possibly the disc binds slightly on the spline. This would probably improve in time. As I mentioned you should not have more than 8 ounces of clutch fluid. The recorked disc should be about .220 thick and should need no break in . Don't know who recorked your clutch. If the disc was not baked properly to get out ALL the moisture, the corks will expand when they get hot and make the clutch drag.

Unknown

Going back to one of your earleir posts, you said you could be driveing, push the cluth in and the car would stop moveing and engine still running, Then when you tried to go to another gear I would assume yoi did this without leting the clutch out first, but when you tried to shift it would grind. OK, you're standing still,clutch depressed, at this point NO gears are moveing,right? you try to shift and it grinds, that means some gears had to start moveing. The clutch plate/flywheel is the only thing that can start them moveing,You've done all the things with the linkage adjustment. All this indicates the clutch plate hanging up . Cause? may not have been properly built, Some of the corks off just a bit can do it. Not much you can do except use it or take it out. If you choose to use it give it time to fully absorb fluid, get warmed up real good a few times to dry out moisture as was mentioned before, and the maybe try to purposely let it slip some and try to level off the corks that way. Not good I know. The only other option is take it out and back where you got it. That turkey is critical on rebuild, only get it from where others have gotten good ones. Don't know them all but they tell me the guy at INDPLS is the best

Unknown

Hi all:



Thanks for all the advice. Believe me, it is very much appreciated. My clutch was sent to Ron Fellows for rebuilding, and I would send it to him again if I needed to. I've heard nothing but good things about his work, so let's safely assume that the recorking process was done correctly. If you'd like to argue this, please do so privately amongst yourselves. I'm satisfied with his work and don't want to get involved there.



Right now, my car is sitting on four jack stands. This is because I have fully removed the brake assemblies and bearings. The brakes are being relined here locally in Worcester, and I just completed the repacking. Brakes will be done on Monday. I hope to test the clutch again next Tuesday.



My guess is that I just have a little binding on the splines, and yes I do hope this diminishes in time. It may and it may not (nothing profound in that statement). I should let a little of the HET fluid out of the clutch, because likely the corks are large enough being new. I also will put 90wt in the transmission.



I recall when installing that the fingers looked good, but I didn't gauge them for equal spacing. If push comes to shove, I'll pull the clutch (uggghhh) again to see if I need to redo the fingers.



I'll post again next week when I can road test. Can't tell you enough how helpful these posts are. Truly looking forward to taking this car to the Nationals next year (it's only 20 miles away for me).

Unknown

I'm not familiar with these wet clutch set ups, but I'll offer something else I haven't seen mentioned. Pilot Bearing/bushing? too little clearance will cause clutch drag just like you describe, too much will cause some pedal chatter and could damage input shaft bearing.

Geoff

The pilot bearing in the crankshaft in this case is a ball bearing, so unless it is frozen it is unlikely to be the cause. However, misalignment can cause problems. I had one engine that had been machined with no shims in the Mains, and that raised the centre line, which meantteh spigot shaft was at an angle. I would still advise to minimise the amount of oil in the clutch as the first sstep in alleviating the problem of clutrch drag.

Geoff.