question for hydramatic experts

[Deleted User]

My 55 Hash has a dual range hydramatic I believe, Neutral, D4-D3, Low and Reverse on the column, though when I move the linkage on the trans I only seem to have three positions before reverse, I would expect four. The trans was working roughly for awhile but now won't go into gear at all except it will move forward without engaging completely, in reverse the car doesn't move at all in if pushed seems to be locked in gear, this is most perplexing. On another thread it was mentioned that the reverse on the dual range is hydraulic though I'm not sure what is meant by that. I drained the trans fluid, it looked like motor oil and replaced with the correct amount of trans fluid including one quart of transX with no improvement, when checked in neutral though the stick reads over full. I guess it's time to go to the transmission shop, luckily I have a guy who grew up in the hydramatics so unless someone has any suggestions that will be my next step. Any suggestions before I hit that point?



Harry

mars55

Here is a thread that discusses the differences between single range and dual range Hydramatics. You should have four positions.



http://www.classiccar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10706&highlight=hydramatic



In single range Hydramatics the reverse plantary gear is held by a mechanically applied anchor pawl. The dual range Hydramatics use hydraulics to apply a cone clutch to hold the reverse plantary gear which why people refer to dual range reverse as hydraulic.



It is possible somebody did put motor oil in the transmission as bid to keep a failing transmission working. I have seen someone put differential lube in a Dynaflow to keep a slipping (failing) transmission from slipping.

[Deleted User]

Thanks, I've been following that thread which is why I came up with the reverse question regarding hydraulics. The car only has 77,000 miles on it so I can't imagine the tranny going that bad where motor oil would be needed but seeing the work the last guy did nothing surprises me. I guess I'm on my way to see Fred the transmission guy. What is the difference between the Hyda-Matic and the Twin Ultramatic and was the Twin Ultramatic also used in the Hornet, my tech manual refers to both Transmissions but it was written for all the AMC 55 cars so it may have been used in the Rambler only. Would the numbers stamped on the trans tell me if I have a dual range Hydra-Matic?



Harry

mars55

I believe the Twin Ultramatic was used on Hudsons that had the V8 motor in '55. The motor was built by Packard and so used a Packard transmission.



I agree you need to see the trans guy. I believe your transmission has losed hydraulic pressure.



THere should be a tag on the right side of the case that will have the code to ID the transmission. See thread I posted earlier.

Clutchguy

mars55 wrote:

I believe the Twin Ultramatic was used on Hudsons that had the V8 motor in '55. The motor was built by Packard and so used a Packard transmission.



I agree you need to see the trans guy. I believe your transmission has losed hydraulic pressure.



THere should be a tag on the right side of the case that will have the code to ID the transmission. See thread I posted earlier.

Please,Don't confuse a Hydramatic with an "ultra-tragic"!!!! Also,have you tried just servicing the transmission fluid and cleaning the filter?and is the fluid full?What color is the fluid now,and does it smell burnt?.If you don't know,your trans.guy will probably be able to help.If you don't have a hydramatic book,you might obtain one before going to much further.Good luck~

[Deleted User]

Okay folks, I talked with Fred the transmission guy, Sr, not Jr, who is also good but he doesn't mess with us old timers and our old cars, anyway, Fred Sr. thinks I should drop the pan and clean the filter, he feels since I haven't broken anything yet this will be within my abilities. So now I'm waiting for a pan gasket and if all works out right tomorrow I'll drop the pan and clean the filter. Fred feels since the car sat so long I've dislodged a bunch of bad stuff, especially since the stick reads so full with the proper amount of trans fluid in the box, the fluid isn't getting where it belongs. If I remember way back to my youth it seems every time I dropped a pan on anything lineing up the pan gasket correctly always led to me learning a few new curse words. I hope this advancing age I've aquired will make this process easier, though I am very doubtful. At the very least I'll only lose ten quarts of trans fluid and I couple of days, Fred can't take the Hudson until next week anyway, if things go right then tomorrow night I'll drive the Hudson home, dang, won't that be swell.



Harry

mars55

Just be careful when unbolting the trans pan. Remember that the pan is full of oil and the pan will fall off the trans when the last bolt is removed and splash oil everythere. The trick is to loosen all the bolts and then remove all the bolts except say the rear bolts while holding the pan up. Then you can carefully lower the front of the pan and drain the oil.

Unknown

Might be easier to use the drain plug.

[Deleted User]

Yeah, I think I'll use the drain plug before I lower the pan.



Harry

mars55

Well, not all auto trans have drain plugs. I didn't know that Hydramatics had a drain plug. It seen that all the auto trans I had ever worked on did not.

Unknown

mars55 wrote:

Well, not all auto trans have drain plugs. I didn't know that Hydramatics had a drain plug. It seen that all the auto trans I had ever worked on did not.

That's true. But the one in question does. Learn something new everyday here.

[Deleted User]

Mars55, just having a little fun with you, I have dropped plenty of pans with no drain plug, always messy. I got my pan off this evening, the filter was real dirty and plugged. I had to drop the cross member to get the pan off, that was really a pain. Now I have a new dilemna, how do I keep the filter on the tubes while I raise the pan. There isn't anything to hold in place, I thought maybe o-rings on the filter but there aren't any, I guess I'll call Fred the transmission guy in the morning, there sure was a bunch of sludge and dirt in the bottom of the pan and on the filter.



Harry

Unknown

Mars55 is a good guy. It's all in good fun. I know what you mean about it being a messy job. However, you're lucky to have a filter to clean/change. Older Hydra-matics didn't have a filter. When you do have a filter, usually there is a rubber O ring to hold it to the pick up or a bolt (usually on Fords) to hold it in place. If you had O rings, they probably dissolved years ago. Did you change just the fluid that came out of the pan or did you do the torus too? Even if you cleaned the pan of sludge and install new fluid, that should make a world of difference.

[Deleted User]

Dave;

I agree, Mars55 is always ready to help, great guy to have on this list. What is the torus? Would that be the torque converter? If so I'm not sure how I would drain it. I did drain the tranny the other day and put fresh fluid in it so the torque converter should have relatively good fluid in it. I read that I shouldn't flush the hydramatic though,just keep replacing the fluid. I need to talk with the transmission guy though to see if he has o-rings or grommets for this filter, maybe a new filter. I'm not sure how this filter is supposed to stay on the tube though, maybe the pan holds it in place. I tried to hold it up while I slipped the pan up but my fingers go in the way.



Harry

Unknown

Pan does hold filter in position., but I have seen a small piece of bailing wire,very thin used to hold screen in position. As for all the "stuff" cloging the screen its probably clutch material. If adjusted properly the bands usually don't shed much. It is time to visit your transmission friend., get the bands adjusted ,save a sample of the debris on a paper towel to show him. Good Luck Lou Cote

Unknown

Harry,



Mars55 is a great guy. Recently, he was kind enough to catch a goof I made. You just drained the trans case. After you remove the flywheel housing dust cover, there is a hex head pipe plug at the bottom of the torus cover. You remove that to drain it. You're right, routine flushing is typically not required. Although your situation is not typical, but as long as you didn't find a volume of clutch material in the pan, I think that a few fluid changes (and probably a few adjustments) should do the trick. Now, if we can only figure out how to put your fingers on a crash diet. LOL I wish I could be of more help, but it's been so long since I changed fluid in one of these, this is all I can remember at the moment.



Dave



Dave

[Deleted User]

Dave,

don't know if it was clutch material or not, didn't save any, just cleaned out the pan

Lou, after 52 years and 72000 miles I'm guessing there is some sludge, hopefully most of it was in the pan, I'll have to look in the filler hole to see if the filter is on the pipe, if not I'll try the bailing wire



Harry

Unknown

Harry,



Do you have the shop manual for your trans? Even if the method of filter attachment is not mentioned, sometimes a picture will give you an idea of what was originally used. Was the sludge dark or did it have more of a metallic cast? Was it smooth in texture or gritty? I say that if the trans has 70,000+ miles on it and has never been rebuilt, what have you got to lose in changing the fluid. Although trying the easiest and most economical fixes is OK, you don't want to assume that all is well just because the trans shifts. A trip to the shop would be a good idea just to get a professional opinion on its health. Better to be safe than sorry.

[Deleted User]

Dave;

I have the shop manual for the car but it doesn't carry the transmission information. The sludge was a combination of gritty and smooth, very dark but no metallic sheen, no shiney metal particles either. I plan on getting to the trans shop but Fred is tied up for the next two weeks working on an Edsel that is mostly a basket case. He's having me do the primary work until he can get to it. I like havning a mechanic who tells me to do all the preliminary work as it saves me money in the long run. So for now I'm trying to get it running well enough for me to drive it to his shop instead of towing it. I didn't know about the torus but I will drain it today while I have the car up, if I can find the drain. That could be why the trans showed over full last time, I added all the fluid the requirements called for without accounting for the fluid still in the torus. I'm not looking for shortcuts, the fewer times I have to crawl under this car the better, I'm too old and fat to get under that Hash, how could they make it so low to the ground while the fenders are so high?



Harry

Unknown

The Hydros that did'nt have drain plugs in the pan, you remove the filler pipe from the right front corner of the pan & drain it from there. Gets most of the fluid out. Have a drain pan handy for as soon as you get the fitting broke loose, it'll start to leak.

[Deleted User]

Steve E.

Well heck then, I've really messed up big time. I saw that plug in the back of the pan and pulled it out and let all the fluid out, now I have to put all the transmission fluid back in and drain it out the fill pipe hole, next time I'll just wait instead of just jumping into things, that would save me a lot of problems. Before I do that though I have to try and figure out if that filter is on the pick up pipe, I wonder if I can borrow an esophogeal scope from my doctor friend so I can go in the non drain plug hole and see if it's on.



Harry

Unknown

Harry Hill wrote:

Dave;

I have the shop manual for the car but it doesn't carry the transmission information. The sludge was a combination of gritty and smooth, very dark but no metallic sheen, no shiney metal particles either. I plan on getting to the trans shop but Fred is tied up for the next two weeks working on an Edsel that is mostly a basket case. He's having me do the primary work until he can get to it. I like havning a mechanic who tells me to do all the preliminary work as it saves me money in the long run. So for now I'm trying to get it running well enough for me to drive it to his shop instead of towing it. I didn't know about the torus but I will drain it today while I have the car up, if I can find the drain. That could be why the trans showed over full last time, I added all the fluid the requirements called for without accounting for the fluid still in the torus. I'm not looking for shortcuts, the fewer times I have to crawl under this car the better, I'm too old and fat to get under that Hash, how could they make it so low to the ground while the fenders are so high?



Harry

Harry,



I should have mentioned that the trans info is in a seperate manual. The grit in the sludge is clutch friction material. Not shocking for a 50+ year old trans with 70k miles on it. It sounds like Fred the mechanic is a good guy to know. If you're draining 50+ year old fluid, might as well get it all. Once you remove the flywheel dust cover, the drain plug for the torus is right on the bottom, can't miss it. Yes, if you drained the trans (or though you did) and refilled it as if it were dry, it would be overfilled. Your drain procedures are good since you had to get the pan off anyway. Being mature and robust (not old and fat) can make crawling around under the car a bit challenging. As far as the height of the fenders goes, blame Nash.



Dave

[Deleted User]

Dave;

talked with Fred today, he told me the way to keep the filter on is to slightly tweak the steel ring on the filter so it creates a little friction and will stay on while you raise the pan. He also said it was a good idea to drain the torus so that is next. He said don't worry about the sludge too much as we will determine the condition of the clutch when we pull it down, right now get it going so I can drive it a couple of weeks until he can get to it. The underside of my Hash has become a mobil home for an assortment of black widow spiders, they don't bother me too much until they start touching my hand while it's stuck up in some spot where I can't move fast. You can feel them when they touch you to see if your edible, I don't like that too much, I keep scraping skin off my hands trying to get them out of where ever they are. then I reach up in the said area with a stick and stir the spiders up in the hope they will go hide while I work. I may need to take some spray with me, it's starting to make me a little twitchy to stick my hands up into dark areas.

I found my Motors manual with the Hydr-Matic section in it good for rebuilding or working on but no trouble shooting section.



Harry

nick s

Dave53-7C wrote:

Harry,

Once you remove the flywheel dust cover, the drain plug for the torus is right on the bottom, can't miss it.
Dave

I don't have as much faith in your luck as dave does. once you have the cover down, you will need to turn the flywheel until you get the plug to bottom. you will have to turn it about 3/4 of the way around as the direction you choose will inevitably be the long way.

Unknown

Harry,



Fred sounds like a keeper! Good advice for keeping the filter in place. Since your intention is to just drive the car a little before taking it to the shop, I wouldn't worry so much about what came out of the pan. Spiders....:eek: It sounds like the spiders are getting upset about you invading their home. Before invading their space again, you can certainly spray the area. You could also blast them away with compressed air, suck them up with a shop vac or leave a small light on near the car. Since insects are attracted to light at night, spiders will also go there to snack on them.

[Deleted User]

Nick,

darn, I thought for sure the torus was a stationary ring turning planetary gears and the plug was always on the bottom. Fred also told me that reverse is also park when the car isn't running which was why the tranny locked up when I put it in reverse and tried pushing it some to see if the trans would catch. It took more than three quarters turn to find the timing mark so I guess I'm not that lucky, what the heck does UDC mean? It's only 110 out right now so I guess I'll go get a haircut then crawl under my car. One has nothing to do with the other but I do need my hair cut.



Harry

[Deleted User]

Well, I got it all put back together and the trans is filled, started the car and she don't move. I guess there is something bigger wrong than just a dirty filter. Now it's onto the flatbed and off to Fred, I am beyond my abilities at this point. Not really but I don't want to tear down a transmission when I can pay a really good trans guy to do it right. Some times it's just better to pay an expert.



Harry

Unknown

Sorry to hear that. Did you try all drive positions? Please let us know what Fred's diagnosis is.

[Deleted User]

Yep, tried both hands on the wheel, one arm on the seat back, head out the window, every drive position I could think of and car won't go anywhere. I'll keep you all informed as soon as I know anything.



Harry

[Deleted User]

Harry Hill wrote:

Yep, tried both hands on the wheel, one arm on the seat back, head out the window, every drive position I could think of and car won't go anywhere. I'll keep you all informed as soon as I know anything.

Harry

Now that's FUNNY, I don't care who you are!
Bob

Clutchguy

That is funny!! Just a thought for a new book "Proper positions for driving your Hash" You can change hats when you change positions.The person to pose for this picture should be Charlie N. LOLOLOL