Need Help: 6V Pos Ground Alternator Install

Unknown

Hi, all; good to be back!



I recently purchased a six-volt, positive ground alternator for my 1954 Kaiser up at the Iola Car Show. It was a rather spur-of-the-moment thing, and I confess that my knowledge of alternators is extremely limited and the installation instructions I was given were verbal, and hastily written down by myself. I purchased it because it was the only one which came ready-to-install with its own bracket, whereas I would have had to make one or have one made if I purchased another.



Anyway, it is a single-wire-type alternator, and I was told that after bolting it in and getting it set up correctly, I should hook the wire up to the BAT terminal of my regulator, having nothing connected to the GEN and F terminals; the regulator would then serve only as a junction point on the BAT terminal. Well, this is all fine and dandy, and it seems to be charging very well, but the seller never told me what to do with the other "AMP" warning light lead that was hooked up to the GEN terminal!



I tried hooking it up to the BAT terminal, but this was useless since the light stayed on all the time when the car was shut off, and was only off when the car was turned on. The opposite happened when I hooked it back up to the GEN terminal; now the light stayed on while the car was turned on or running. I grounded it out altogether and got the same results-- off when the car was off, on when the car was turned on or running.



Does anyone have enough experience with these types of 6-volt, internally-regulated positive ground alternators to tell me where I need to hook up the other warning light lead? I have it temporarily taped off now. I checked the system with a voltmeter while running and found the alternator to be properly charging, so it must be a "self-exciting" type (did some quick Google research). Should I have gotten a two- or three-wire system? Or can I make the warning light work the way it's supposed to work with what I have?



Hope someone out there can help me. Yes, I'm a Kaiser owner, but the K-F forum rarely gets any action and I need some real advice sooner than two or three months!



Thanks much,



Tom

mars55

If it is a true "One Wire" alternator it will not support the use of the "AMP" warning light.



For further reading try these sites.



http://www.madelectrical.com/electricaltech/onewire-threewire.shtml



http://www.rowand.net/Shop/Tech/AlternatorGeneratorTheory.htm

Unknown

mars55 wrote:

If it is a true "One Wire" alternator it will not support the use of the "AMP" warning light.

Is there a way to tell just by looking at it? There are two other studs with nuts on them (tight) coming out of the back of the alternator, on the same end as the battery terminal but across from it, that look like they could double as terminals, but they could just be something that hold the case and innards together. They are roughly in the same position as shown in the drawings that you have linked in your thread. (This is a revamped, modified Delco-Remy alternator, BTW.)



Jeez, I wish I'd done more research BEFORE I'd bought the thing!

Geoff

What you can do is use a normally-closed relay and a heavy duty diode. Connect the wire from the light to the common terminal of the relay, and n/c terminal to ground. Then when voltage is applied from the ignition switch to the light, it will glow. Now connect the output of the alternator to the coil of the relay, and the heavy diode from the coil to the B terminal. It will have to be a diode capable of taking the maximum charge that the alternator will put out. On a positive earth vehicle, the anode (the blunt end!) goes to the B terminal. Then when the alternator starts charging it will energise the relay coil, the points will close, and the light will go out. Good luck,

Geoff.

Unknown

Hey Geoff, thanks a bunch !! All I've ever heard on this is IT CAN"T BE DONE. Would be really great if you had some part numbers or something to round up the needed items Please? EVEN PRETTY PLEASE!!

Unknown

If your alt is the later G.M. type with the small 2 wire plug at the rear edge, the red wire goes to the bat terminal & the white wire goes to the lamp wire.

Unknown

Don't know of any "original" 6volt alternators, You likely have what I do, 12 v that has been rebuilt to 6v and the one wire is all that was used. The other terminals have been internally dissconected. If you talking about the amp or gen terminal on trhe reg,it is useless now as the alt is internally grounded and will work just by hooking it to the positive side of the bat,but you will have no light on the dash. I' m gonna do what Geoff said, I'm sure he has it right.

Unknown

37 Terraplane#2 wrote:

Don't know of any "original" 6volt alternators, You likely have what I do, 12 v that has been rebuilt to 6v and the one wire is all that was used.

Yes, that is exactly what I have. However, it does look like there are two other screw terminals on the back of the alternator (same end as the battery terminal), but I don't know if these are actual terminals or if they just hold the insides to the case. I am going to try hooking the warning light wire to one or the other of these "terminals" to see if anything happens. It looks similar to one of the illustrations in the links given to me by mars55.

Geoff

37 Terraplane#2 wrote:

Hey Geoff, thanks a bunch !! All I've ever heard on this is IT CAN"T BE DONE. Would be really great if you had some part numbers or something to round up the needed items Please? EVEN PRETTY PLEASE!!

I'm sorry, I can't give you the part numbers that you would find in the U.S. I'll have to do some research as to what's available here and get back to you.

Geoff.

Unknown

HI GEOFF, OK, I copied down the info and gonna do the same here, Maybe between us we can find out what/where in the U.S. first thing I'll have to do is find a SOURCE for some of it. Right now I've got a volt gauge hooked up to monitor it { got lucky on Ebay } 6v volt gauge is hard to come by also

Unknown

Geoff:



Did you mean a normally closed relay? If so, in your explanation, shouldn't it be "the coil will energize and the points will *open*"?



Not to be pedantic, just trying to make sure I understand.



The relay and diode should be available at NAPA, or try John Brillman at www.brillman.com He is really good at finding obscure electrical stuff.

mars55

Does your alternator look like any of the alternators on this web page?



http://store.alternatorparts.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWCATS&Category=1668

Geoff

Email me direct at geoffclark@xtra.co.nz and I'll send you a diagram of this simple circuit.

Geoff.

Unknown

HI GEOFF, Got a question, I always thught amps were drawn, not driven by the energy suorce. right or wrong? If I understand it the purpose of the diode it is to protect against spikes. In the system you desrcibe the only thing drawing amps would be the coil in the relay switch. The only time it would draw more amps is if it were shorted,correct? If so is the diode really needed since the alt is not or at least should not ever put out more than perhaps 7 1/2 volts ? P.S. I got a line on some relays I think might work, won't know for sure untill I get one in my hands, Thanks Bud

LanceB

Looking forward to hearing what you find Bud, and if it would work on a 12V system.

Lance

Unknown

Hi Lance, definately will work on 12v system and parts for 12v are easy to obtain, a relay I'm sure I can come up with. Still looking into the diode deal. Geoff Clark is the real garu behind this. Bud

LanceB

Thanks Bud. Geoff did email me the diagram and instructions. I was just looking for a relay i can plug-n-play.

Lance

Unknown

Lets see what Geoff thinks about this;---type into your browser---wiring products.com---look for a Bosch R-40ASD relay switch rated at 40 amps 12 volt, it has a built in diode, quoted price I got was $9.85 at my door. Can it be used on 6v? Maybe/maybe not, I have been able to operate some 12v electro magnets from 6v as they all have a lower MINUMUM energize voltage than what they are rated, A good 6v alt will put out 7 to 7 1/2 volts. If it should fall to 6 and the switch did'nt operate it would by reason say something is wrong and you'd best get out the test equipement. What do you say Geoff ?

Geoff

37 Terraplane#2 wrote:

HI GEOFF, Got a question, I always thught amps were drawn, not driven by the energy suorce. right or wrong? If I understand it the purpose of the diode it is to protect against spikes. In the system you desrcibe the only thing drawing amps would be the coil in the relay switch. The only time it would draw more amps is if it were shorted,correct? If so is the diode really needed since the alt is not or at least should not ever put out more than perhaps 7 1/2 volts ? P.S. I got a line on some relays I think might work, won't know for sure untill I get one in my hands, Thanks Bud

The diode across a relay coil is indeed to protect against spikes generated by the collapsing field of the coil as it is de-energised. But the diode I am talking about is to take the output from the alternator to the B terminal. Getting back to the point of amps being drawn or driven, I'm not sure of your question. Amperage is the current flow through the circuit. So the initial current flow from the Alternator will energise the relay coil and transfer the points. As the output from the alternator increases it will then flow through the diode to the battery (B terminal), as the relay coil and the diode are in parallel. I hope have outlined this clearly. I don;t know how to post the circuit diagram to the forum unfortunately, but if you email me direct I will scan it to you.

Geoff.

Geoff

buggboy wrote:

Geoff:



Did you mean a normally closed relay? If so, in your explanation, shouldn't it be "the coil will energize and the points will *open*"?



Not to be pedantic, just trying to make sure I understand.



The relay and diode should be available at NAPA, or try John Brillman at www.brillman.com He is really good at finding obscure electrical stuff.

Yes, of course that's what I meant, sorry. the "N/O" points will close, and "N/C" points will open. I should have said "points will transfer". I have racked my brains to try and work out a system using just relays, but I can't see any way out without using the diode.

Geoff.

Geoff

37 Terraplane#2 wrote:

Lets see what Geoff thinks about this;---type into your browser---wiring products.com---look for a Bosch R-40ASD relay switch rated at 40 amps 12 volt, it has a built in diode, quoted price I got was $9.85 at my door. Can it be used on 6v? Maybe/maybe not, I have been able to operate some 12v electro magnets from 6v as they all have a lower MINUMUM energize voltage than what they are rated, A good 6v alt will put out 7 to 7 1/2 volts. If it should fall to 6 and the switch did'nt operate it would by reason say something is wrong and you'd best get out the test equipement. What do you say Geoff ?

Yes, there's no reason not to use this if it will energise at around 6.5 to 7 volts. the output of the alternator should be the same as a generator I imagine, at 7.2 to 7.5 volts, so if the relay will hang in there at around 6.5 volts you should be okay. If it is marginal the light may develop an annoying flicker as the relay drops in and out. You don't need a heavy duty relay for this application, all you are doing is supplying a ground for a 6 watt lamp. The built-in diode you refer to will be a spike eliminator only.

Geoff.

Unknown

OK THEN, the Bosch R-40ASD should be just dandy for 12v use and still to be tried for 6v and I'm going to get one and see if it will kick in,my alt is putting out a bit over 7v. Geoff you said the built in diode was for spike only to protect the relay points , By that you are saying we still need another diode to take the load back to the battery, correct? and that I assume would need to be able to handle the MAXIMUM AMPS your alt is capeable of, a totally dead bat would draw everything the alt is capeable of. Now if we can find the right diode we can get rid of those volt meters hanging under the dash !! C'mon guys, start lookin up DIODES. And if one of you computer nerds would get that diagram and get it posted it would take a big load off Geoff as I'm sure there are gonna be lots of requests for it, Geoff if your ever in Salem I'll buy dinner !!

Unknown

Want to know a simple way to do it without all the faadedo and hooplaw. Get a GM 2 wire alt. and hook up # 2 on the plug in to your idiot light. THATS ALL . It works, !!!!No big deal period!!

[Deleted User]

But it won't be 6V

Unknown

Well how do you think they make 6v alts? Any automotive electrical shop can convert 12v to 6v..

Unknown

OK, have you ever tried this 2 wire gm alt on an old Hudson ? We can't go down to the local shop and have them build us an alt,they just won't do that, we have to use what is available from shops that specialize in it. And I don't have a plug in to my idiot light on my 37 T, it's wired in by way of going thru some other gasuges before it ever gets to it.

Unknown

Not to be argumentive, looking for enlightenment as the better we understand things the better we do with them, and the possability that something has been overlooked here. We are makeing progress, I have a relay ordered and should be able to report on it in a couple days. OK, what we are doing is useing the relay as a switching device hooked up between the alt and the bat and light. -- ign switch on it goes to light from bat,--start engine it switchs over to bat from alt. nothing going to light-- all we are doing is changeing were it goes to. It is regulated in the alt which allready has diodes in it and the switch has a spike protecter in it. Since a diode is not needed between the alt output and the bat if we were working on the family sedan why do we need one here? IF the alt fails and the relay switches back to the light there is no current except from the bat. Remember we are only changeing where it goes to, It allready has a diode built in the alt output circuit doing what ever diodes do

Unknown

I have posted this same conversion on here several times. To start Geoff is right if you are using a 1 wire that is internally excited, 2 wire needs to be excited from a outside source, namely the assocery terminal on your ignition switch. Simply run a wire from the switch to your idiot light then from the idiot light to #2 terninal in the plug in on the alt. What this does is cause the light to burn when the switch is turned on and in turn excites the ALT., as soon as the alt starts turning the voltage generated cancels out the current from the idiot light and it goes out. The ALT. plug and the ALT. are common GM and are aviliable at any parts supply , just tell them what you need. 1 wire ALTs. are mostly used in cars such as Model A Fords and such that either have no idiot lights or ways of monitoring amps produced. In addition your generator pully will fit on the ALT. with no problem. I have done this several times on various cars. I know that this a rather simplistic explanation of the process, but feel free to contact me at bowlertb2@iowatelecom.net if you have any further questions.

Park_W

Tombia, as a little addendum to yours above, in these applications I've found that using a 6v bulb in the GEN light works better than changing it to 12 along with all the others. The 6v bulb will provide a bit more exciter current, and because of internal resistance of the alternator circuit, the actual voltage the bulb experiences is closer to 6 than 12.

Geoff

The reason for the diode in the line, is that the wire from the alternator is connected to the "B" terminal, as well as the relay coil. As the "B" terminal is live all the time, the relay coil would be eternally energised! The diode stops this voltage from flowing from the "B" terminal.

Geoff.

LanceB

OK all, I'm all for KISS (keep it simple stupid) but I'm looking at Park's write-up on Ken Crates page and it shows the #1 wire goimg to the BAT lug on the back of the Delco 10-SI alternator then to the starter solenoid and the #2 wire going to the GEN light. In the discussion above its backwards. Which is it guys? Thanks,

Lance