R&P Steering discussion

SuperDave

Another thread on this subject got me to thinking about a problem I have. Not wanting to Hijack the other thread.. here goes..

I converted my 49 to Power R&P using a saginaw R&P from an Olds front wheel drive car. The pump is a saginaw from a 3/4 ton P-cup. It's very "twitchy".. No center to the steering.. In order to correct this, I added as much caster as I could. Only about 2.5 degrees. That requied shortening the top bushing. I found that I had to use zero toe setting. Anything else was scarry! I have shorter steering arms from a right hand drive car to try to keep the ackerman the same. The first attempt I used a pump from a S-10 P-cup. Not enough assist at low speed. I tried different springs in the relief valve to no avail. I then bought a rebuit 3/4 ton P-Cup pump. Now it has good assist at low speed. Still no center and twitchy. Since I already have disc brakes with GM calipers up front, I am giving serious thought to converting my spindles to Ball joint type. A simple matter to weld ball joint adapters to the lower arms. then use fabricated upper arms with Heims to adjust caster and camber. What GM spindles would have the aproximate dimensions to keep the ride height and still be a rear steer? What say you guys! :eek:

Ol racer

Dave,

I am no front end guhru, and you probably realize that R&P is far more responsive then conventional power steering because of not having all the linkage (drag link, idler, and pitman arm).



It sounds like you have tried a lot already but before changing to ball joints for more caster I suggest measuring the Olds spindle steering arm length then compare to the Hudson length. If Hudson arms are shorter it may quicken the steering too much and cause your twitchy response.



Additionally, ensure that you kept (close as poss) your A Frame & T/rod assy on the same 'parallel' and that your kingpin & outter T/rods are close to the same original pivoting centerline



I am converting my straight axle '37 to R&P after trying to eliminate annoying 'bump steer' because of the short drag link from a GM 605 PS Box.

rambos_ride

Rather than monkey around with building a-arms and all (Welding anything to the lower a-arms I wouldn't recommend anyway)- I'd be looking for a complete front cradle, steering, suspension, everything - and just replace the whole mess.

This is not the same as replacing the sub-frame aka Fatman, but just the front cradle leaving the Frame intact.

[Deleted User]

Hi Hudson Dave Here , You need at least 8 to 10 Deg. positive caster with a straight axle. That will stop the bump steer . And they drive very nice .You can buy 6to 8 Deg. caster shims at Napa just loosen the u-bolts and slide them in done in twenty minuets . Trust me on this one I am 63 old and did F/E work for most of my life . P.S I put a Olds rack in my 46 Hudson P/U and had to take it out Becase it turned more In one direction then the other. This is because the rack is not centered in the Olds. If you count the turns and center In your car then the rack Is not centered and makes for VERY STRANGE DRIVING CONDITIONS . Hudson Dave

SuperDave

Hudson Dave wrote:

Hi Hudson Dave Here , You need at least 8 to 10 Deg. positive caster with a straight axle. That will stop the bump steer . And they drive very nice .You can buy 6to 8 Deg. caster shims at Napa just loosen the u-bolts and slide them in done in twenty minuets . Trust me on this one I am 63 old and did F/E work for most of my life . P.S I put a Olds rack in my 46 Hudson P/U and had to take it out Becase it turned more In one direction then the other. This is because the rack is not centered in the Olds. If you count the turns and center In your car then the rack Is not centered and makes for VERY STRANGE DRIVING CONDITIONS . Hudson Dave

Hi Dave,

The 49 doesn't have a straight axle so shimming is out of the question. I ground some off the upper outer bushings to allow the top of the king pin to go towards the back of the car a little more, but I know it's not near enough. That's why I was giving thought to switching to ball joints. Then I could move the upper control arm anywhere I want to.

I have the Olds R&P centered with the steering, so I have the same Lock to Lock. I didn't loose anything. The Isuzu box that Richard Fink used in his Hornet DID have a problem with that. Bump steer really doesn't seem to be the problem that I thought it might. New front springs and new shocks help to keep it steady I guess.. I tried one of the center steer R&Ps from a Cavalier. That would have reduced bump steer a lot. Just couldn't get it right.Lots of problems getting it to connect to the steering shaft without a bind and still be centered in the car where it needed to be. Maybe it would work on a pre stepdown? Dunno..I Think my first modification will be replacing the short steering arms with the originals. I've been told that that screws up the Ackerman, Since I don't have turning plates or a front end machine.. I'll just have to take my chances. I have a magnetic Longacre Caster Camber guage , Two aluminum toe plates from Sweet Engineering and a couple hand fulls of sand on the floor. Real High Tech! LOL

I may take Dans advice and look for a different front "axle"assembly. I don't want to sub frame it, just want to improve the original design.. if I can. Also,most newer stuff is front steer. Fabricating upper control arms is really very easy. i've built a few for stock cars. Even made some for a 76 Monte Carlo that looked exactly like original but were one inch longer. Tube design is much easier. Thanks for the input guys.. keep the ideas flowing.:)

[Deleted User]

Ha Dave If you want some good turn plates take two one gallon Zip Lock bags and put a hand full of greases in each one take out the air zip and TaDa turn plates . They really work . :eek: I am sorry I thought I read strait axle

Ol racer

Dave, If your Steer Arms are more than 1"shorter than the R&P had originally could be the problem.(I wonder if the huge Hudson steering wheel could have some effect as well, since todays cars are much smaller with PS Units)Either way do not modify the cast steer arms.



Given that you have no other (undesirable) front end problems rather then changing out the whole front end, and because you have had experience building A Frames I suggest go that route and build-in the adjustment you need.



It can be done..(In a non Hudson car to install larger spindles & brakes I utilized Camaro ball joints by outlining & recording the original A- Frame angles. For lower joint I cut out the A frame end then welded in a 3/16" plate, hole sawed it, then pressed in the ball joint (with a couple spot welds underneath).The top ball joint I had room to redrill 4 different bolt holes. It looked original and worked well).



In your case I would get spindles that are compatable with your current disc set-up by recording the Hudson spindle dimensions then look for another spindle that will have similar dimensions especially Track & ride Height, then build more/less travel Adjustment. I have used tubular Tob A Frames with Heims on the ends for nicer adjustment. Probably can buy set cheap on E Bay under Race Parts...

Chuck

Ol racer

Hello HUDSON Dave,

I have not had much experience with straight axles and it sounds like you have. You are the second person this week that mentioned adding more caster to eliminate my 'bump steer' however I have no problem at all until I hit a random series of ripples on the highway making the car dart left & right while I alarmingly hold the wheel....

My set-up has a GM Power steering box with a short drag link downward to the steering Arm and I cant get the desired horizontal angle that I have read is "Critical" with a short link. I built a new Steer Arm mounting it higher at the top spindle bolts but its still not horizontal like original causing undesirable 'bump steer'. When we jump on the bumper the car will noticably toe out/in.

After trying several things I am in process this winter of installing a power R&P Unit to the Axle using the Torque Arm U-bolts. There will be no bump steer since the unit will move with the axle. The 'slide' travel will be in the Shaft U/Joint. I have it all 'mocked up' on another axle assy but After reading Super Dave.s case I may erncounter other problems to resolve though. I wonder if adding far more caster would resolve the problem .TBD.. Thanks, Chuck

Ol racer

Hello Hudson Dave,

Please read my message below regarding adding more Caster to my Straight Axle Set-up based on your expertise.

Thanks, Chuck

[Deleted User]

Hi Chuck Thanks for the vote of confidence . I will try and explain what I think is going on . With out enough caster any bump in the road will set It Into a violent shaking frenzy . This Is because the drag link is to short . As the frame moves up and down with suspension travel It steer-eras the front tires left to right causing It to shimmy . With the lack of caster the front wheels actually turn left to right. With 8 to 10 deg. caster Instead of sterring left to right the front wheels actually lay In or out at the top stoping the shimmy . If you look at alignment specs on any strait axel like 4 wheel drive chevy. It calls for 8 deg. caster just for that reason . Last but not least you must get the drag link parallel . When it Is not it pulles the wheels L and R dramatically . One suggestion would be to make a new drag link with a gradual S turn In It to make it straight in line . I hope this helps . 8 to 10 deg is a must to make a good driving straight axle car. AND DIAMOND BACK RADIALS DO HELP Hudson Dave call if you need any more help . 352-564-4284:)

Ol racer

Hello Dave,

Great advice; I will ppostpone the read its simple to add caster to my Terraplane with dual Torque arms I simply add shims at the attachment bolts

Ol racer

Hello Dave,

Thanks for the great advice. I will hold up on the R&P install until I add more Caster and road test. Currently my Terrraplane has only 2-3 deg as factory spec back then; Unfortionately I cant alter the drag link any more horizontal and I do have radials. I read to adjust Caster with the dual torque arms axle I need only Shim at the two attaching Bolts. It may be awhile before I get to road test though because of snow here in Pa but when I do test I will let you know...

Thanks Again;

Chuck

Unknown

Here is a very interesting bit from the Flaming River website. If they would just offer this for a Hudson.



I am also in contact with Fat Man Fabrications; they provide a "spec sheet" for one to complete and they say they can build anyone a Mustang II cradle that is ready to install. Contact Kevin Craig (remove the HET) at HETKevin@fatmanfab.com



I'm in preliminary stages on my 54 Super Wasp at this time of removing engine tranny ad differential and the original, antiquated, bulky, heavy Hudson steering cradle (the whole bit).



Will also replace the steering column (from Flaming River offered in stainless or paintable) with a tilt, key on the column at 3:00, wiring included and directional signals, column shift with the modern pattern (P R N OD L3 L2 L1). Gonna be Kool. This will have the built-in arms to shift the tranny. See URL below.



AN EXAMPLE :



http://www.flamingriver.com/index.cfm/page/ptype=product/product_id=361/category_id=188/home_id=63/mode=prod/prd361.htm



Flaming River has introduced a power rack & pinion cradle steering system for the classic 1955 to 1957 Ford Thunderbird equipped with the original 292 Y-block engine.



The system is designed for these classic Thunderbirds with the stock frame cross member and suspension. The rack & pinion cradle steering system is carefully designed to maintain the full stock steering radius.



The Thunderbird rack & pinion cradle systems uses a travel bar system to attach the rack gear to the tie rod ends. The system locates the tie rods closer to the original operating plane.



The Thunderbird rack & pinion cradles are precision jig-welded and install in the stock steering system mounting holes. The cradle assembly also adds strength to the frame. No drilling, cutting or welding is required.



The Thunderbird power rack & pinion cradle system includes a new Flaming River stainless steel steering column in paintable mill finish or a highly polished finish. Each system includes all required Grade 8 mounting hardware, universal joints and shafting, the mounting accessories for the column and the power steering pump and the remote power steering fluid reservoir.



#FR314KT1



Power Rack and Pinion Cradle Kit with Flaming River Tilt Column





Only $2,820.00





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My tranny is gonna be a 4L65E (heavy duty 4L60E) that is being rebuilt to take 650 hp (G-MEN Transmissions in HUDSON, FL, selling on ebay), and it is 100% money-back guaranteed. This will be a street-strip car. It will have the Ford 9" differential w/posi and disc brakes



The engine is a 6.0L 345hp, 380ft-#s torque, ground pounding stocker out of a SS Silverado 1500, Dale Earnhardt "Intimidator" Special Edition truck. See URL example below:



http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/2006-Chevrolet-Silverado-1500-Spec-Ed-D-Earnhardt_W0QQitemZ290178468882QQihZ019QQcategoryZ13487QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem



I think we Hudson owner's need some more ground-pounding Hudson's that appear "normal" (i.e., resto-mod). I hope to have the fastest Super Wasp on drag radials in the world, and the fastest Super Jet too, as it will be built very similarly, and perhaps with the addition of a turbo and other radical mods. I know, there is always someone who can & will beat you. In the mean time have fun Hudson gang!!!!

[Deleted User]

Here, here! Mine won't be a strip car, but w/ a 300hp Vette LT1/4L60e it should be no slouch on the street.

SuperDave

Hudson Dave,

You are right on target with the caster thing on straight axles. I have found many hot rods at the local cruises where the king pins are nearly vertical. And they have a small steering wheel. Upon asking the owner how it drives,,, I get the same response.. HAIREY!! The surprising thing is that few of the owners actually built the car themselves or have a clue how the suspension and steering work. I am sure that many are sold because of the crazy steering characteristics. Some are difficult to correct by moving the radius rods. I do know that in the "old days" the axles were actually bent or twisted outside the spring perch to get the king pin angle .I suppose a well equiped truck shop could still do it. A chromed axle would most likely need replating.

By the way,, where have you been ? We missed seeing you at the Orange Blossom Chapter meetings.., at least the ones we actually made ourselves!

Dave W. (FL)

[Deleted User]

Ha Dave , Hudson Dave here . I just though of something what kind of tires do you have? I had a Lincoln That had the same problem . He had coker radials and it was a handfull at any speed over 40 MPH we put 45 PSI in the tires and drove It 70 MPH with no problems . If the tires are 35 PSI put them up to 45 and let me know if It made a difference. Just trying to make ma ma back into a thirty year old is keeping me busy . With back surgery and a total knee replacement we have been staying close to home . But thanks for asking Hudson Dave

SuperDave

Hey Hudson Dave,

I had a reply all typed out and lost my internet connection, now have to start over agin! Hate that....

Yes I tried the higher (40) psi. It helped! The final solution was a bit strange though..Here what happened..

The first pump I had on it was a used Chevy 84 S-10 Pickup pump. Not enough pressure to help when going slow..I tried fiddeling with the pressure valve with no luck. Tried to figure out how to spin it faster, but all the GM pulleys are the same diameter regardless of the vehicle (at least that's what my junk yard survey showed)I figured it wasn't enough pump or the one I had was worn out. So I jumped in with both feet. Bought a rebuilt for a 85 Full size Diesel 3/4 ton Pickup. That one was an overkill I guess. Thats when the steering got REALLY touchy at speed. Messed with the toe some more.. Just has to be exactly ZERO. Raised both front and rear tire pressure. Raising The rear helped the most. (Gonna try your 45# now)Figured I had to live with it... Until I added the Hydra Boost master cylinder from a Astro Minivan. WOW! Now the steering is much more manageable and the pridemore discs are working like they should! Matching the pump to the system is critical. Looking back I realize the Diesel truck would have also had the hydra boost since it couldn't use a vacuum booster, so the pump was intended to run steering as well as the brake booster. Problems I need to address now are the lines which are junk yard hoses rebent to fit. I know it works well, so I don't mind spending a few bucks on some custom hoses that will look neater. Also the wheels still rub the calipers on hard cornering. Wheel flex is the culprit and I have ground as much off the calipers as I am willing to. I think some thin (1/4"?) spacers might fix it without screwing up any other geometry. I'll get around to that sometime this winter. With the new rear gears and the power brakes this old super Six has some legs as well as being able to stop! Like trading cars.

Hope to see Ya at one of the OBC meets.. if I ever make another one. Retirement is more hectic than working!! !

Dave W (FL)