No Start

TOM-WA-

OK EXPERTS.........Need advice



Battery is fully charged, Generator and Voltage Regulator are working correctly..

Car starts fine and runs just great.......Then for no apparent reason the car will stall and it is impossible to restart even with a jump.



Tow the car home and let it rest for a few hours...check the battery and it is still fully charged..turn the key and whamo....she fires right up???



What the heck is happening........Is it possible the Starter Solenoid is overheating thus shutting down the car and not allowing it to re start untill she cools down??



As an Update to my original question...when the car stalls any attempts to start it again result in the starter turning OVER, but ever so slowly as if the battery were dead.

It will crank, but very very slow and attaching a Jump to the battery terminals does NOTHING to increase the cranking speed...





I towed the car home.....disconnected the battery and let it sit for 6 Hours.....After sitting I checked the battery and it was fully charged. So I re connected the battery cable and hit the ignition switch...Car fired right up???



Today I started the car and let it run till it got up to running temperature...I

turned off the Ignition....Tried to re-start the car......NOTHING the problem returned...It barely cranks. Once again I let the car cool down (about 1hour) and when the TEMP GUAGE read Cold I tried to re-start.....BANG fired right up..



This apperar to be something that is happening when the car reaches operating temperature????



I think we can eliminate fuel problems and the starter appears to be fine....





COULD A FAULTY COIL REACT THIS WAY??????

How about the Starter Solenoid Switch???









Any ideas would be appreciated..







THANKS,









TOM

[Deleted User]

Tom,--- First thing I would check would be the coil. Cliff Minard.

Jon B

Cliff's idea is a good one. Another possible source might be the ignition switch (though how the heat affects that, I know not). And...do you have an electric fuel pump on this car?

[Deleted User]

Don't know if this is possible or not, but could the circuit breaker under the dash be overheating? might check it if you can get it to happen again. It just about has to be from a component that is heating up as the car is running. like Cliff said, first check the coil.

Bob

hudsontech

I'll be interested to see what turns up here - the first Hudson I had, a 1953 Hornet Sedan, did the exact same thing. Never did figure it out. It finally just quit doing it.



Hudsonly,

Alex B

Unknown

TOM-WA- wrote:

OK EXPERTS.........Need advice



Battery is fully charged, Generator and Voltage Regulator are working correctly..

Car starts fine and runs just great.......Then for no apparent reason the car will stall and it is impossible to restart even with a jump.



Tow the car home and let it rest for a few hours...check the battery and it is still fully charged..turn the key and whamo....she fires right up???



What the heck is happening........Is it possible the Starter Solenoid is overheating thus shutting down the car and not allowing it to re start untill she cools down??









Any ideas would be appreciated..







THANKS,









TOM

When you say "impossible to restart even with a jump" do you mean it won't crank or it won't fire? If it will crank but not fire, I'd suspect a coil or condensor heat related failure. If it won't crank, I'd suspect the starter solenoid. You might try taking a jumper cable and attaching it to the starter motor side post of the solenoid and then momentarily to the neg batt post to see if the starter motor turns, if it does its prolly the solenoid.



Good luck!

Unknown

Some Hudsons used a ballast resistor and if it's ins a heat prone spot, can go bad. Just my 2 cents worth.

rambos_ride

I had a similar problem in a different vehicle. I changed coils, distributors and multiple rebuilt carbs before I found the problem.



I had good spark, air and fuel flow to the carb but when it got hot it would stop running and not start again.



I don't know the design of the Hudson carb (or other) you are using but in this instance when the engine/fuel got warm enough it would cause the rubber on the needle seat valve for the float to swell and stick cutting off the fuel flow.



The carb was a poor design (IMHO) as the needle seat valve was not connected directly to the float so the only thing that kept the needle up was the fuel pressure - which wasn't enough to overcome the problem when it heated up.



I ended up replacing the manifold and carb with a newer design and manufacturer - haven't had a problem in the last 15 years and I still have the vehicle.



I don't know if this helps - you didn't mention if you had fuel flowing to the carb or a good solid spark to the plugs. But these old engines are pretty simple air, fuel and spark is generally all you need

TOM-WA-

As an Update to my original question...when the car stalls any attempts to start it again result in the starter turning OVER, but ever so slowly as if the battery were dead.

It will crank, but very very slow and attaching a Jump to the battery terminals does NOTHING to increase the cranking speed...





I towed the car home.....disconnected the battery and let it sit for 6 Hours.....After sitting I checked the battery and it was fully charged. So I re connected the battery cable and hit the ignition switch...Car fired right up???



Today I started the car and let it run till it got up to running temperature...I

turned off the Ignition....Tried to re-start the car......NOTHING the problem returned...It barely cranks. Once again I let the car cool down (about 1hour) and when the TEMP GUAGE read Cold I tried to re-start.....BANG fired right up..



This apperar to be something that is happening when the car reaches operating temperature????



I think we can eliminate fuel problems and the starter appears to be fine....





COULD A FAULTY COIL REACT THIS WAY??????

How about the Starter Solenoid Switch???

Unknown

Tom:

Not being where you are and looking at the car my response is just a stab in the dark. But, what you are talking about is a hot ground problem. I suspect the ground strap or starter for your car is insulated from ground. As the temperatures increase what ever ground path is being used to keep current flowing is either opening or becoming so resistive that the ignition fails.

The symptoms you have given are consistant with grounding failure.

Several things to do:

The ground strap in a Hudson is two seperate pieces and should be connected as follows: Short strap between the base of the battery support structure and the top of the motor mount. The surface of the motor mount should be BARE METAL and clean... as should the ground strap contact surfaces. The short strap should be captured by the nut that mates to the rubber support mount connection that supports the motor mount. The other end of the short braid strap and the longer braid strap should be connected to the stud welded to the forward edge of the battery support stucture. I emphasize you must make sure the metal surfaces are free of paint and clean.

Make the connection between both of these points secure by using a proper size washer, lock washer and nut. The other end of the strap should be connected to the battery. Note that if the ground strap is does not have the same taper as the battery it will not make positive contact with the total circumference of the battery's positive terminal.

Second, the starter requires a clean connection between the starter case and the mounting point to create an adequate ground path. If the starter and or plate have been painted, the ground path connection must find an alternate path to ground. The alternate path may not have sufficent mechanical contact or wiring guage to create a ground capable of handling the HIGH Current occuring during starting operations. If either problems occurs, the starter and solenoid will suffer overheat and eventually a failure or worse a fire will result.

Finally: Over the years I have experienced the effects of aging on Hudson automobiles. One electrical problem I observed many years ago was an electrical problem which occured due to vibration and heat. The problem was initially created by putting an over length replacement screw into one of the connections on the voltage regualtor. While the longer screw did not make contact with the inner fender well... ground in a Hudson..., vibration would cause the voltage regulator to move and the overlength screw to make contact. Sometimes the Gremlins we seek are self induced! This problem took many mechanics observations and several weeks to correct. The person who found the problem was a highschool shop class student who docuemented all the changes and inspected for failure.

Once you have discovered and corrected your problem... share the results with the rest of us ... I know I don't know all about Hudsons and your answer might allow me to help another or myself in the future

Good Luck

Geoff

Okay, having been away for a while I am catching up on postings. Tom, have you previously been able to drive the car? Has the engine been recently reconditioned? The reason I ask is that if recently rebuilt, it could be that the engine has been set up with too tight a tolerance and is actually siezing up when hot. I know it's a long shot, but it has all the symptoms - won't turn over until it cools down. Try getting a large wernch on the front pulley nut next time it occurs, take the plugs out and see how tight the engine is to turn over. Then compare it when the engine is cold. And then get back to us.

Geoff.

TOM-WA-

GEOFF:



This car has Never been rebuilt as far as I know the problem has just recently become worse....The non starting has progressed over time...

Jon B

Quick thoughts:



1. You say the car 'stalls'. You are just purring down the highway and it shuts off? Or is this a normal 'stall' (like letting the clutch in too soon) and the real problem is that it won't start afterwards? In other words, I'm trying to figure out of the car stalls because of the same problem that prevents it from starting, or if we are just supposing that the source of the stall was part of the same problem that caused the failure to start.



2. Yes, a bad coil can, when it heats up, not allow the car to start again til it cools down. And then it can run just fine. I had such a coil, once. Does the coil look old? Did it come with the car?



3. Just for grins, try replacing the condensor. I don't know if condensors go temporarily bad when hot, then 'come back' when they cool down, but....so many problems trace back to the condensor that it's worth trying a replacement. Three years ago in a parking lot, after running superbly, my Terraplane wouldn't start for love or money. I slipped in a spare condensor that I keep in the car and -- voila! -- up it started!

Geoff

Okay, it was just a question, and can be ruled out. I concur with Ken Cates, it points to a resistive earth circuit. I run the earth cable from the starter mounting bolt to the battery direct. Good luck.

Geoff.

Geoff

On the condensor/points side of things, these will have no bearing on the starter motor not turning the engine over. It has to be resistance in the main battery/earthing cables. Have you taken the simple step of checKing the battery voltage at the starter with a volt meter, and for resistance between the engine block and the earth terminal of the battery when the problem occurs?

Geoff.

tigermoth

some times it isn't just one thing...sooo with that in mind have you verified you have good grounds? particularly the block/frame/battery, with cable large enough to do the job. you don't even have to have a coil to crank an engine over. i may have missed it, but what car are we talking about here? you still may have other problems as well...coil/condenser/points/insulation around point/condenser post...as the guy sez 90% of carburetor problems are in the ignition. tom ooops, i did not see geoff's post before i rambled on...

Unknown

Geoff C., N.Z. wrote:

On the condensor/points side of things, these will have no bearing on the starter motor not turning the engine over. It has to be resistance in the main battery/earthing cables. Have you taken the simple step of checKing the battery voltage at the starter with a volt meter, and for resistance between the engine block and the earth terminal of the battery when the problem occurs?

Geoff.

Yep, I'll vote for a ground/cable problem, or perhaps the starter motor itself (armature, windings & such) are causing the problem when the operating environment is hot. Also, an old battery can show proper voltage but have low amp output at high temps. I'd take the car by a good auto electric shop when hot and have them troubleshoot it.

Unknown

Some things I'd check. When it cranks very slow when hot, check voltage. You may have a short between cells in the battery. Swap batteries with a known good battery and try that. Is the timing to far advanced? This will keep an engine from running because the engine fires against the starter. This could be caused by a gummed up mechanical advance or the timing simply being set too advanced. This usually shows up with the engine hot as you have a fresh fuel mixture ready to fire.



Good Luck

Steve

[Deleted User]

I'd also cast a vote for high resistance in the ground path to the starter. Make an appointment with a good auto electric shop so they are ready to diagnose the circuit when you arrive with the warmed up car!