starting engine after 50 years rest

Unknown

Hey Hudsonites, I'm going to start my super six soon. It's been sitting for 50 years. Fixed all that it needed. New plugs, got spark, changed oil, dropped pan, cleaned filter, cranked to prelube Anyone ever done this? I could use some pointers. Should I squirt gas in the cylinders before tightening the plugs?Or not. How about the spark retard lever and the hot air lever. Is there some sort of procedure with those controls. How about prefilling the carb with a funnel and gravity so I won't have to crank so much?Well ,thanks to anyone who will take the time to help me Phil

Geoff

Phil, there is no need to squirt fuel into the cylinders, it will only wash oil off the walls, or go out the valves which may be open. Have you filled the troughs before replacing the sump? Of utmost importance. If you haven't, put a quart in each end of the valve chamer, and let it run down, this will fill the troughs, and give eyerything a good start. Where is your fuel supply? If from the vacuum tank, you will need to prime that, then it will gravitate to the float bowl. The spark lever needs to be fully advanced, that is right back against the stop, in the downward position, and the points just starting to open with the piston on t.d.c. You can refine this when you get the engine running, and preferably set with a timing light so it is 3 teeth b.t.d.c. at idle. (Adjusted by loosening the distributor clamp and turning the distributor ). With the carburettor full, and the choke fully closed, you should wind the engine over a couple of turns, and then push the choke in slightly to allow enough air in for it to fire. Good luck,

Geoff.

Uncle Josh

I don't squirt gas in the cylinders. I do prelube one way or the other. I usually squirt some gas in the carb until it snorts.



Then I prefill the carb which will give it some 15 or 20 seconds. I usually have the fuel pump suck gas from a can to take the tank and lines out of the equasion at first. When it runs reliably out of a can, I hook up the tank line.



When the spark is at retard the points should just open at TDC I would think, although I don't have one that old.



Don't know about the hot air lever. Is that analagous to the choke? The choke has to be closed tight for a cold flathead engine to fire, but opened some as soon as it does.



'Nothing should ever be done for the first time', but it'll teach ya.

Unknown

Thanks much again Geoff. You're quite a nice helpfull guy. Glad you're here! Phil

Unknown

Thanks to you too.unca josh Phil

Unknown

Dear Geoff, whereabouts is the valve chamber accessable from? Phil

37 CTS

Also suggest moving the throttle lever up one quarter to facilite starting as your foot will be on the starter pedal.

After having fuel in carb, on mine it starts best cold with timing lever all the way up and throttle up one quarter with full choke roll over two times then push choke in half way and it will start on one more revolution. If it doesnt start keep cranking some, try choke in all the way Hudson always want to run. After starts, adjust choke to where it runs best untill warm then choke in all the way. After it runs lower thottle lever to lower position as engine allows.



Let us know when she RUNS!

[Deleted User]

This is all very helpful to me guys for when I get the 29 Dodge Brothers going again. Thanks to everyone who has answered Phils question.



Harry

Geoff

The valve chamber, sorry, should be more accurately called the tappet chamber. This is on the left side of the block, under the exhaust manifold. There are two pressed steel covers, one had the firing order, and other says "Hudson".

Geoff.

Unknown

Geoff C., N.Z. wrote:

The spark lever needs to be fully advanced, that is right back against the stop, in the downward position, and the points just starting to open with the piston on t.d.c. You can refine this when you get the engine running, and preferably set with a timing light so it is 3 teeth b.t.d.c. at idle. (Adjusted by loosening the distributor clamp and turning the distributor ). Geoff.

Whoa!!! I may be misreading this but the spark should be fully retarded when attempting to start. I am not a Super Six expert, but advise a little after TDC when cranking. Especially if hand cranking. In that case, cranking with the spark advanced may cause serious injury. Even using the electric start could damage the starter.



Correct me if I'm wrong, but please don't attempt to start it until there is a good solid answer.



Steve

Geoff

The setting is for initial purposes only - you must have a starting point, and that must be with the lever fully advanced down against the stop, and the gears at the bottom set for full mesh with each other with no chance of becoming disengaged at either end of the movement. Otherwise you are just guessing. Once you have the engine running, then you can re-set the spark for optimum position, (at the distributor end, not moving the advance lever) and then, sure, you have to retard the spark for starting, otherwise it will kick back on the starter.

Unknown

Dear Geoff,Phil here, Once again, by asking questions on this forum, I've avoided a possible problem. More explicitley, your advice telling me to open up the tappet chambers to add oil. Upon doing so I discovered that two valves were stuck open. Luckily,I was easily able to lube them and free them up. Phew! But now I have a new question. There are lower areas around the tappets. Should there be drain holes in these areas? I can only imagine there would be and if so then mine are clogged with crud. If there is a hole there somewhere can I clean it with a coat hanger? Other wise, how can the oil drain down? Thanks again Geoff. You are a wealth of knowledge and we have all benefited from you. Phil

Geoff

Yes, there are holes, but you can't actually see them, as they are behind the lifters. They won't be blocked. the holes are for the dual purpose of allowing oil mist to circulate through the chamber, and to allow oil which comes up past the lifters to drain back. Try putting oil in there and see what happens. Did you put oil in the troughs before fitting the sump? If so, you won't need to add oil in the tappet chamber.

Geoff.

Unknown

Dear Geoff, Phil here. I didn't fill the troughs (didn't know) but that's why I took off the tappet covers off.good thing I did as for the stuck valves. So I'll fillemup and check it out.Let you know. Toast to the best. Phil

Nevada Hudson

We got the '54 Jetliner running for the first time since 1964, several months ago. Ran rough for several moments until a rat's nest blew out the exhaust pipe! Then ran much smoother!

Hudsy Wudsy

You guys might enjoy the reading this exchange I had with a fellow board member about six months ago. I already had the engine running (and running well) and was simply asking for advice regarding confirming there were no cracks around valve seats. At one point it's suggested that no one in their right mind would use an engine that's sat for that long...



http://www.classiccar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10318

[Deleted User]

I think the confusion here was using yourself versus selling. If you are going to use yourself you can do what you like. If you are selling then doing the work is a trade off of how much to pay to check the engine versus just a sell as is. And in an engine that is over 50 years old the mileage is of little concern. The big concern is acid in the oil breaking down the bearings. For sure the rear seal would be a concern. Might start up and run fine and then totally crap out 500 miles later.

Hudsy Wudsy

51hornetA wrote:

I think the confusion here was using yourself versus selling. If you are going to use yourself you can do what you like. If you are selling then doing the work is a trade off of how much to pay to check the engine versus just a sell as is. And in an engine that is over 50 years old the mileage is of little concern. The big concern is acid in the oil breaking down the bearings. For sure the rear seal would be a concern. Might start up and run fine and then totally crap out 500 miles later.

Acid acts until it has no more power to act and then it becomes benign. How much acid do you beleive could have been contained in the thin film of oil on any given bearing surface at that point all of those years ago when the engine in question was run for the last time? Do you think that unknown forces cause that minute amount of acid to increase? Do you imagine that the oil in the sump might miraculously migrate up to the bearing shells over and over again to do continued damage? Dropping the pan and cleaning out the sump as well as replacing both front and rear seals was a given for any new owner and I said so when I listed the car for sale. That small amount of work is nothing compared to time and expense tearing down a perfectly good running engine and rebuilding it just because someone with little practical experience thinks that it can't be used as is. Are you saying that the others who have posted in this thread are being foolish for trusting engines that have been dormant for years? That whole "acid/bearing" nonsense was the desparate machination of someone who was forced to put up or shut up when he was losing an argument!

[Deleted User]

I really have no idea how many engines you have pulled down in your life. I have pulled down lots and seen every type of scenario. The acid content of oil is dependent on the amount of moisture that is available to mix with the oil. Pulled down a 41 splasher that had been sitting for 40 years when we pulled the crank the bearings were just about gone. All depends on how the engine was stored. The bearings had gone soft and flaked off when you rubbed your finger over them. I have pulled down engines where the owner had filled the crankcase as full as he could get it because he intended to rebuild and never got round to it. Also have pulled engines that were left sitting with a mixture of diesel and oil for same reason. Engines with oil and lots of water.



Kind of hard to tell without taking a look. I have also flushed out engines and pulled the pan gave it a clean and started them up and then ran fine. Many possible scenarios. Lets take mileage for instance say you have 50K city miles and another guy has 50k miles over dirt roads which engine will have more wear.



Recently had a buddy who resurrected a 232 that had sat for over 25 years engine turned freely had about 45K on it all look well he dropped the pan cleaned everything out did the usual work ran nice for a month he drove it about 250 miles and it burnt a rod bearing. Many possible outcomes. If I am selling an engine I let the person buying it decide what he is going to do with it. If I am working on it myself I will pull it down and check it. I got the time and I like to play it safe.

Geoff

In Phil's case ( the one who started this thread) we are talking about a splash-oiled engine (1928 Hudson). I had an engine that had been sitting for 50 years, and was assured that it had been turned over regularly, and was in good order. However, I decided caution was better than valour, and pulled the sump off, and found a hole eaten in one trough, allowing the oil in that trough to drain back in to the sump. Had I started the engine that bearing would obviously have burnt out. there were several "pock marks" in other troughs as well, so acid is obviously the only cause of such like. Incidentally, the rest of the engine was fine, and ran well, and is still going 10 years later.

Geoff.

Hudsy Wudsy

I'm sorry, but I found your friend's argument particularly empty because my question was about being able to offer some assurance to the next owner that this 308 engine didn't have any cracks in the block. Did I state anywhere that I was going to attempt to represent this engine as rebuilt, overhauled or anything other than it was? How could anyone possibly assume that I was going to keep the secret of the car's long dormancy hidden when it had license plates on it from the sixties? Of course I was selling it "as is". I simply wanted to make effort to address the common issue in Hornet engines of cracking around the valve seats. Quite honestly, I think my effort was fairly laudible. If you were buying a nice running Hornet engine, wouldn't you like to know that the issue had been addressed in a good faith effort? Your friend's tangential (and harshly dismissive) arguments that I "should sell it as is or have it completely rebuilt"; "no one in their right mind would go through the effort and expense of pulling a used engine from a collector car only to install another used one"; and "consider that the bearings can be mystically damaged by having sat in oil that may have had a high acid and/or moisture content" still amuse me. Geez... how judgemental can you get? By the way, can you try to explain to him that the bearings that he was so concerned with don't actually sit in the oil? Explain to him that they rest above it with the same smear of oil that was on them the moment it was last run. I'm not going to dismiss your knowledge and experience here. I beleive every word you say about the condition of engines you have torn down. I just wish to point out something that you already know, I'm sure, and that is that a great deal of the bearing surface deterrioration that you and I have both found in engines was caused by the state of the oil in engine at the time that it was last run. Storage conditions play their role as well, of course, but nothing influences oil acidity like combustion by-products. Every gallon of gasoline burned releases a half gallon of water. That combined with the sulfur in fuels creates the dilemma of acidic oil. You said that the mileage on the engine didn't matter at this point, but you are wrong there. The particular engine that I was addressing only had 68,000 miles on it. It would be foolish to think that a '53 Hudson Hornet with that few miles on it would have any blow-by issues. Simply put, I feel your friend's presumptious opion about the usefullness and value of an engine that has sat dormant for years is unqualified. I doubt if I'm alone in this opinion, as many old car, truck and equipment owners regularly operate vehicles that have never been rebuilt.

7XPacemaker

Shortly, i will be in the same scenario as Phil. My '32 Essex has been sitting since 1952. I was planning on checking the troughs. I called Dave Kostansek to find out what his thoughts were. Dave is VERY knowledgeable about the old splashers- just as Geoff is. His recommendation was EXACTLY as Geoff said in his latest post. When it comes to the care/ maintenance of these old splashers, Geoff and Dave are authoritative figures and I hold their recommendations in the highest regard.

C.J.

Hudsy Wudsy

7XPacemaker wrote:

Shortly, i will be in the same scenario as Phil. My '32 Essex has been sitting since 1952. I was planning on checking the troughs. I called Dave Kostansek to find out what his thoughts were. Dave is VERY knowledgeable about the old splashers- just as Geoff is. His recommendation was EXACTLY as Geoff said in his latest post. When it comes to the care/ maintenance of these old splashers, Geoff and Dave are authoritative figures and I hold their recommendations in the highest regard.

C.J.

Thank you for bringing us back to the subject at hand. I didn't mean to hijack your thread and I appologize to all of you for having brought up my little story at this time. I regret it now, as it has little bearing (pun) on how much you value your long dormant engines.