More frustration... no motoring today.... long, with a question at the end

Unknown

Well, I finally got to hanging the gas tank in my 50 hudson commodore 6. All sealed and dry and painted, and the sender is functioning and the pickup tube is cleaned, re welded, etc... all is good.



So I go and grab 10 gallons of new gas, and proceed to fill the tank. I jump in the hudson, and it cranks about 5 seconds and fires off without missing a beat. I think great! maybe we have eliminated the problem....



Think again....



I decided to take the hudson around the block to see how well it was running. About half way into my "loop" which is only about a mile total distance, it starts to sputter, and stops running, same as before. Only now, it seems worse. So I get the thing running, and limp it home, after three more such episodes. When I get it in the yard, I look at the fuel filter bowls (two filters) and to my amazement, I got no gas in either one of them....



I loosen the "bleeder" screw on the coarse filter, and allow it to fill with gas. The car fires right up and runs. When I tighten the bleeder screw on the filter, it shuts off, after it runs out of gas. If I leave it loose, it seems to run okay for a while, but driving it around it acts the same way. I even went as far as to taking the gas cap off, thinking maybe it was not venting, nothing.



I am starting to think I got a bad fuel pump. The pump I got was a rebuilt pump from Dave K, at last year's nationals in Pittsburg, and I have to believe that this is not the case. All of the products I have bought from him over the years have been nothing else but superb. (I am not complaining here, so don't take it that way, anyone, please) However, my problems seem to have started after this point, for I was able to drive the car home two miles with a pump that was "spraying" out the rectangular vent, with no problems.



To eliminate this as a possibility, I am going to install the "ford pinto" pump. I bought this a while back for an alternative solution. I have one question though, has anyone ever used this pump? It physically looks like it will work, the arm seems right, the bolt-up seems right, but the only one I could find has a return line, along with the inlets and outlets (3 lines). Is ther another number anyone knows to use that will work as well, that only has 2 lines?



For the purposes of testing my theory, i am going to install a "catch can" device to capture any excess fuel. In practice, I guess I can (if sucessful) run it back to the tank.



Anyone got any advice on this?



just feeling frustrated, and it was hot out today...

PAULARGETYPE

Did You Check Your Gas Cap Is It Vented Or Not If Not It May Be The Trouble

Hudsonly

Paulargetype

Jon B

Did you test the pump while on the car? That is, disconnect fuel line from carb, put a can under it, then turn engine over to see if pump is pumping gas?



Are you sure that the pump has the proper fiber spacer between it and the engine block? This is critical for getting the arm in the correct position in relation to the camshaft.



Are you sure that, in re-coating your tank, you didn't clog any of the tubes? Had you tried blowing air through it? And the metal lines to the tank...are they in good condition with no rust-through that would cause a leak?



To answer your question about Pinto pumps, I was given to understand that the latest 'favorite' interchange was with an AMC pump. Patrick Dean gave the following information: "Use 258 cid 6-cyl. pump, ’72-76. No dual action version available. You'll have to fab a new outlet line from the pump to the carb, and run a new rubber line from the tank line outlet to the pump inlet. The AMC pump seems to fit good. had to use the thick gasket off the pump on the other Hudson engine I have.! I have to have a 90-degree fitting on the outlet, since it points straight down and there's no room to bend a hard line at that point.'

Club Coupe

Also check the screen in the carburator at the fuel inlet for trash. Other possabilities are a pin hole in the gas line. Another source for a fuel pump is Antique Auto Parts Cellar (781-335-1579 or www.then-now.com). Ken Cates site will have the information about Pinto and AMC pumps.

TwinH

My 49 with 308 and twin carbs has the newer pump and I've had no problem. Came with

a spare in the trunk Napa #M6737. Thought I read somewhere though that with the newer pump you didn't need the spacer between block and pump. Mine still has a spacer.

I know that I had a reciept that the former owner had written some info on and I'll

find it now and let you know.



PS This Napa pump has the 2 lines only.

SuperDave

Club Coupe may be on to the problem. If there is a small hole anywhere in the fuel line between the tank and pump. The pump will suck air. I had a fitting leak at the tank pickup connection. It had been cross threaded and although it didn't leak fuel, It sucked air in. A little teflon tape solved the problem. If you can run a temporary line from the tank to the pump to bypass the original line, you can eliminate the chance there is a hole in the line somewhere out of sight. Hang in there. You will find the problem. Dave W. Fl

TwinH

Ok found the reciept and it says...1983 AMC Concord 258/4.2L L6. His notes on the

back are 78-83 AMC Concord fuel pump, Carter 6737 use on Hudson W/O spacer.



This is interesting because he installed it WITH the spacer. hmmm.



Pump outlet has a very short straight line then a 90 that points foward. Hardline

continues to a fuel strainer and the on to the carbs. All hardlined

rambos_ride

Did you check the fuel pressure? That's usually a good indication of a problem with a weak fuel pump in my experience.

Geoff

Sorry to disagree with anyone, but teflon tape on fuel fittings is not a good idea. It will seal for a while, but contact with gasoline will eventually soften and melt the tape, and this can then gum up fuel pump valves, carburettor seats, jets etc. Same goes for oil pan bungs. Teflon is okay for normal plumbing fittings, using air or water, not gasoline or oil. Some fuel pumps come with specific instructions not to use this.

geoff.

Unknown

Okay all, I had a chance to sleep on this for a couple of hours...



Looking back, it might have been an AMC pump that I was looking for, and have bought, after all. Maybe I was getting pinto and gremlin confused... or something like that.



As far as fuel pressure, the guage on top of the one filter registers zero pressure. I had some pick-up tube problems, but they were cleared up before the tank was put back in. I am thinking that perhaps the fuel line could be an issue now. MAybe there is a pin hole, but I searched the entire length real well, and found nothing. My assumption here would be to find even a slight area of wetness.



I am going to move forward with the AMC pump. (if that is what I got, I still think pinto sounded familiar for some dumb reason) I will try this route, use the appropriate spacer, to make sure the installed pump matches what I pull out, and likewise, make sure all three match height for what was in there from the get-go.... since I got the old old pump as well.



If the AMC pump doesn't work, then we will replace the entire length of fuel line, just to eliminate that as a root cause. I want to eliminate eerything as a problem before I switch this over to twin h, since i am sure that will introduce it's own set of issues to deal with. (at least that seems to be a logical approach, right?)



It seems easy to get discouraged sometimes, thanks for all of the help... I will keep you all poted for how it turns out...

TwinH

Pinto probably does sound familiar, I've seen that application quoted on various

webpages. Understand that I'm still new with this Hudson stuff so when you asked about

a 2 line pump I knew thats what I had. The previous owner of mine took the time to

document changes that he made and he did a great job which will make it SO much

easier to troubleshoot should [or] when the need arrises.

Club Coupe

Before you go to the trouble to replace the fuel pump try running the car off of a small gas can. If it runs okay then you know that the problem lies in the fuel line or gas tank. BTW, I had a pin hole in my fuel line and I couldn't see it either, even with a magnifying glass. Those things can be as small as a pinhead.

Unknown

Geoff was 100% right. Teflon tape on fuel lines does not mix. It can cause real trouble. Club Coupe is also right, you can get pinhole leaks in a fuel line or one fitting can be just a little bit loose or cross threaded which will cause air to get in the system without gas leaking back out.



The easiest way to test your fuel line is to take it off at the tank and also at the fuel pump. Block off the line at the pump with a bolt or something in a rubber piece of fuel line, and pressurize the line with air. It's pretty easy to set your air compressor at 10-15lbs and then hook a fitting directly to the line.



After you have pressurized the line, squirt it with a soap solution and if you have a pinhole leak or a fitting is loose or crossthreaded it will blow soap bubbles. If you've ever worked with natural gas or propane, that's the most common method to check for leaks.



Hope this helps and good luck!!

russmaas

Check the large bolt at the bottom of the fuel pump there may be a screeen in there and it may be cloged. A 7/8 wrench is needed I believe.

Unknown

I checked the fuel pump, I think it is an 11/16, but no matter, the AMC pump is on, but I still need to find a 90 degree fitting to make it all work. I cannot believe that one single fitting could be that hard to find... (but working third shift, and coming down with allergies already this year, slowed me down a bit today....)



Once I find the 90, I will be all ready to fire it up, again, and we will see where we're at.

Unknown

Good news today....



got it running, and driving, for some time!



I ended up having a hose made for the fuel pump to the carb, with metal line fittings, and it's about 30" long. Works well, took both filters out, and drove it for some time!



It was awesome, with the windows rolled down, the vent wings open, gently floating across the backroads of Lancaster COunty....



even my little girl went along, for the adventure. ( I know, no seatbelts.... but hey, it was all back roads.... no traffic.)



It was nice to finally be able to drive it once again...



Pump works great!



I guess now I'll tear it apart, again, and put twin h on it....





more to come!

brnhornet52*

Hi Kid,

Been following your progress, and congratulations getting it running again. I'd definitely put the filters back in somewhere in your fuel lines. Some filtration is better than none, and its hard to believe how much junk these filters pick up over time.

Also, I'd get ahold of Dave Kostansek since he guarantees his parts. It seems like you got a bad pump which isnt all that old.

Unknown

Looking at the pump, it looks like there is a small breech in the back area of the lower (fuel) diaphragm... I am making a guess here, and only got a tiny bit of dampness out of there... I will still give Dave my business, and if nothing else, consider the pump a good core. I might pop the bottom off and see if there are reasons why this no longer worked well, or effectively, that were introduced by me (after all, I needed to drop the tank... so who knows what got into the pump...) I know a lot of people would be quick to point a finger, but I still feel all things considered, the pump was likely good for many years of service, and I probably introduced problems to it.



I will never go back to a hudson pump, again. AMC concorde for me all of the way. Now I can go anywhere, and get a fuel pump, if it ever decides to kick, but seriously, what are the odds?



No teflon tape, on fuel lines for me.



As far as the filters go, they are both clearly marked, and likely, I will re-install when the twin h goes on.



THe new set-up is real slick... I like the pre fab hose, a lot.



The guy that made it told me "hey! I could make brake hoses for that car as well... " and I told him, great, but I can still get them at Autozone.....