'36 Terraplane engine options

timbersmith

Hey All,



I'm kinda looking a year or two into the future with this question, but there's nothing wrong with that right? (actually I'm antsy to start work on it, but that won't be until I get it back from the body shop late in the year.) At any rate, I've got a '36 Terraplane pickup that I am going to be fixing up and getting back on the road, and am still somewhat undecided on the final engine/transmission combination that I'm going to be using. So any suggestions would be appreciated. Also keep in mind that I don't want to hack things up that can't be easily replaced - so body/firewall/hood mods are out of the question, but making a custom floorpan is an option since a good-sized section is bolt-in. That way I can store the original floor pan and make a replacement if necessary.



The truck does have the original drivetrain still installed and complete as far as I can tell. Now, I'm not against running the 212, but I could pull an engine from the salvage yard and get that rebuilt for close to the same amount as the rebuild kit for the 212 alone. So considering swapping out the original engine is caused by a fairly tight budget more than anything else. I was leaning towards putting in a Pontiac 400 V8 with a t56 6-speed manual behind it, and initial measurements said that the engine might fit without any major surgery (the length of the Pontiac and Terraplane engines differ by less than an inch - including the balancer. Width of the Pontiac at the heads was a bit tight, though) - until I remembered I didn't take into account the front "horns" on the lower section of the firewall. There is a chance that the engine might still fit, but I don't know if there will be enough room for exhaust and any other necessary assemblies until I get the chance to fit it between the frame rails.



Then I considered using a newer I6 engine instead - figure that would be able to fit better than the P400 (i.e. not as wide), and back that with a t56, or maybe even a t5 5-speed manual since I can get one of those real easily in my local salvage yard. This line of thought also led back to the original 212 - but replace the transmission with a t5 or t56 (I'm gonna go out on a limb and bet that this combo hasn't really been attempted yet). I'm gonna be swapping the rear axle regardless - nonexistence of replacement axle bearings guiding this decision - just don't know which type of rear, yet.



So does anyone have any other suggestions as to what engine/trans combinations that I oughta keep in mind? I do not want a belly-button Chevy 350/th350, nor do I want to use an automatic trans, so give it your best shot! Stick with the 212, find an I6 (I was thinking something from a Jeep since it's got a slight connection to Hudson), or find a small V8 that'll fit in the compartment? I'm also not looking to go radical on the engine power - I want to keep this as a cruiser, not a powerhouse. I was figuring that a stock-type rebuild on the P400 would be good for gas mileage (while upgrading to a roller cam for longevity). Pair that up with the t56's overdrives (5th: 0.74:1, 6th: 0.5:1) and I could cruise anywhere.



Thanks,

Mike

MikeWA

There is an outfit called Wilcap in California that makes a number of adapter setups, including one to mate a Hornet 308 to Muncie 4 speed, another to mate to T5 five speed. I bought a T5 at a swap meet, a bell housing and some of the hydraulic clutch on Ebay, and will probably buy the adapter setup this fall. Couple of questions I can't answer regarding your project- don't know if a Hornet engine would fit in your car (may be too long), or whether the rear of the 212 and 308 is similar enough to enable you to use the T5 adapter on the 212.



All that being said, you probably will want to get away from the stock 212. It's not pressure oiled ("splasher"), and if you're going to do some cruising, you'll probably want something more modern (and with a little more soup). Check wilcap.com to see what other adapters they have for the modern transmissions you're considering. The 6 cylinder option could be cool- are there any of those overhead cam Pontiac 6's still around? How about the cute little 215 cu in Buick aluminum engine?

[Deleted User]

mike has beaten me to it with the buick 215 V8. light and compact, reasonable hop up potential if you want to go that way later down the road after the money has recovered. im not real sure of the installation issues with them but people put the rover equivalent in a lot of stuff worldwide.

there is potential in the 250ci ford sixes but you really need the australian heads to see it (aussie ebay) and i can hear the screaming of protest now. we had t5's behind them here in the 80's. not sure if the clutch was hyd or cable but either way is easier to do than mechanical) though i can also imagine the slack jaw when you dust someone with one of those old "anchors" (having said that im swapping back to a 262/308 from a ford 6 in my pacemaker

ford windsors come to mind too.

Ol racer

FYI

I have a '37 Terraplane with a 308 coupled to a GM Trans. The engine required a small incision at the top of the firewall (for the rear of block). I moved the radiator forward in the grill shell then cut out the original radiator mount area for the damper.. The motor still sits behind the axle for good weight transfer. I only had to bend the flooor board slightly...



Additionally, I seen a '38 Terraplane cpe at a cruise-in recently with a 392 Hemi that looked like it belonged in there....



Granted a '36 may be a little narrower but pretty much anything will fit into the compartment

Unknown

I know not what it will take to put a 215 Buick, Rover or OLDs into the Tpain... but do know that my 215 Xperiences were GREATTTTTTTTT!. During the 80s I owned 10+ Lil Buicks. Daily driver was a 62 Buick Skylark coupe. Wifes ride was a 215 powered 62 Special Stationwagon. Other drivers included a 2dr coupe with 215 backed by a factory 4speed. A real sleeper. The fellow I sold that lil buick painted back to the original LILAC pink... then went out huntng vettes for fun. Several 4doors, one convertible and another stationwagon were in the wings as parts cars and vehicles that were put back on the road for others.



Not Hudson... but another vice I used to feed... 215s with 2 4BBLS were boss!

HUDSONBROTHER1

I Also Have A 36 Terraplane Truck In My Garage.ihave A Hornett With A Tri Power 400 Pontiac In It,thought About Putting One In The Terraplane. The Tight Area Looks To Be In The Tranny Area (ie:

X Member.have A Complete 351 Ford Winsdor/c4 Combo That I Think Will Do Nice. As To Buick Motors 350 Motor Is Lite,compact

And Front Mount Dist.but Lately I Have Been Thinking Big Hudson 6 Cyl. After Reading Ol Racers Post I'll Have To Do Some More Measuring. Maybe If We Ask Nice We Can Get Ol Racer To Post Some Pic's. Later Dave

Ol racer

FYI

I have a '47 hudson with a Chevy V8 that does not get the attention my Terraplane gets.... Personally, with the renewed Interest in Flatheads across the country I think the time is right to build a Hornet powered Rod because its so different and its the 'King' of Flatheads....Especally with Twin H or 4bbl Headers, duals etc... I even see 4 cyl Rods appearing because everyone is tiring of the norm....



Attached picture of the Hornet just after installed in the Terraplane...(Disregard the color because my printer is low on Ink) At this point I had a B&M blower Adapter with dual Weber Carbs...



The Stepdown Headers were made to fit the install exiting on each side of the right frame rail, one under the running board. I ran duals out to each side to simulate a V8 and it sounds good. The small black 'Pocket' at top of firewall was the only trimming required in the firewall. (About 12" x 12") I use a gas pedal cable to the carb.



I use a modified Turbo 350 Trans and slid motor & trans back into the center X then built mounts. A 4 or 5 Spd would take less room. I did no triming in the X. I had to bend the floor board slightly for automatic, but a 4 spd you wouldnt.



There are many updates now available to make Hornets more powerful than ever and as reliable as any modern motor...

50C8DAN

I know this is probably not the solution you are looking for but I have seen a couple of Hudson trucks with a Hudson 8 in them and they looked pretty cool. Another idea would be a turbo charged Buick 3.8L V6, small and powerful, and plenty of speed equipment available.

Ol racer

I used to think I was the only one building Hudson Powered Hot Rods until they started appearing in this Forum and in the White Triangle News..

Ol Racer..



There are adaptors available to use GM 4spds or Auto OD, Roller timing chains, Cams, Headers, Intakes, Fuel Inj, Blowers, Super seal Gaskets, Electronic Ign, and much more..... and Machine work dont cost any more than other engines....



Check out Rudy Bennett's awsome Turbo Charged Hudson 262 'Sleeper' Hudson Powered Hot Rod

I hear it draws quite a crowd at Cruise-In's plus it is one FAST 262

timbersmith

Sweet! Keep the ideas coming! As I said before, I won't have to worry about this until another year or more, but it is definitely good to know. All that I have available to compare sizes is a section of frame that I kept from one of the parts trucks I managed to snag - the whole front and the X-portion to the center tunnel section. By using the 212 as a guide I was able to guess at the position of the firewall and take some measurements between the frame rails. Figured I would use this frame section for mock-up work before working on the original one.



I did mean to take some more measurements so that I could post up what I know, but forgot to do so. I also don't have a good picture of the engine compartment, either



If I remember correctly, the Pontiac could fit when placed in the same position as the 212 - it had almost 2" clearance at the heads near the firewall, and 'bout an inch clearance at the heads near the front. Course this was before I realized I forgot to take into account the distributor or the firewall horns. Plus I was taking measurements and guesstimating clearances, so fitment is still somewhat unknown. I won't know for sure the fitment until I get the other parts truck here (that a salvage yard is holding onto for me), but I wanted to use the P400 cause I've got it sitting in a corner of my garage right now.



Thanks again!

- Mike

HUDSONBROTHER1

I Just Can't Have One Hudson EIther.The Header You Used Look Like A 1960's Era Clifford Headers That I Have On My 1946 2 Door Sedan,262,twin H And Dual Exhaust.big Sixxes Sound Sweet With Duals!! The Car Is Black Inside & Out. It's Book End Is A Red 1947 Coupe With A 455 Buick,dual 4 Barrels With A Nos Plate Under Each One,headers,th 400 7 9" Ford Rear.i Have To Agre With You About The Flatheads.nostalga I Guess. Thanks For The Pictures And Thi Info.i Have 2 308's And 1 262 In My Garage In Oregon.262,twin H, 200r4, 4.10 Gears And Headers And Duals?

Nos Foger Nozzel Tapped Into The End Of The Ballence Tube?

Thanks For Insperation,i Was In Kind Of Slump. Feel Much Better Now. Later Dave

[Deleted User]

With all the options out there for a Hudson Big Six, I wouldn't consider anything else for a Hudson-built vehicle.



My car isn't pretty, but a survivor. I've won some "people's choice" trophies along the way. When I ask folks why they voted for my car, I get one answer:



This:





Had I used anything else, I'd be just another car.



Mark

Ol racer

Nice picture and the way to go....

[Deleted User]

Ol racer wrote:

Nice picture and the way to go....

One of these days, I'll get this finished up.



One thing about time its taking me, I keep having ideas. My McCulloch is bolted up to this engine now - figuring out how to huff n' stuff the webers.







There is a resurgence in Hudson powered interest. Much more than when I wandered into the fold about 9 years ago.



Mark

super651

Mark your doing better than me. My 308 is still on the floor now,with a Tap-ROOT Growing from the oil pan to the cement floor and getting Larger all the time.

Hudsonly Rudy ( hope the 262 stays togather a while longer )

[Deleted User]

I'm not going to say I'm doing better than Rudy, not at all.



But, my biggest project is tap-rooting in the shop floor too.



I'm driving the Super Six, trying to get a baseline tune on the Edelbrock - which is going to get unconventional real soon. Once I find the silver bullet, Rudy's big red McCulloch will make an appearance.



I don't have the Edelbrock fully whipped, which is why I stay quiet about it for now. It has street manners and gets good milage if you stay out of it. The secondaries get funkadelic when you upset the air demand through the primaries and it starts flooding (fuel droplets instead of fine atomization) at any jetting I've tried. I'm going to need a vacuum gauge that reads in increments between 1" Hg and zero. I have that little vacuum at WOT up through the rpm range to 3500. I wasn't expecting that.



I'm going to re-map its air/fuel circuits and get that fixed. Then we'll have something to talk about.



Meanwhile, the stroker vegetates and keeps that tap-root growing.



Mark

rambos_ride

For cars I prefer gasoline powered engines ~ For a pickup - if you want to go non-hudson on the engine - despite the current fuel costs - I'd look for a nice turbo-diesel to drop in there.

The extra noise can easily be dealt with inside the cab/engine comp with modern insulating materials.

It'd be a novel combination in that pickup for sure and after driving a diesel pickup for the last 6 months - for my trucks I don't want to go back to gas engines - I like the noise and the smell - now I finally understand the lure my grandpa had to diesel trucks!

terraplane8

olracer, what is the weight difference between the 308 and the 212?

Ol racer

terraplane8 wrote:

olracer, what is the weight difference between the 308 and the 212?

I never weighed them but the little 212" is not light by any means....

I use an aluminum Head & Intake on the Hornet to reduce weight. I also used an aluminum Turbo Trans instead of the heavier Hydro...



Iniatially, I thought the Hornet was heavier so I made a pr of new front Main Leafs a little thicker, but the car sat high when completed so I de-arched them to lower.......



So from my experience I think the Hornet set-up is not much heavier.

[Deleted User]

If you were going the 308 route, I'd start getting parts put aside and start saving your cash. A friend of mine paid $3K to have a 308 rebuilt and put in his '50. And unless someone starts manufacturing 308 blocks, they are going to be getting rare (at least a rebuildable one). I imagine guys are hording them as we speak. And if you want to hot rod the flathead, you will spend some serious dough. A 392 hemi is going to run plenty to rebuild one as well. I was told to go with the 7X in mine, but $7K just for an engine was way outta my reach. I have only about $2K in my '56 315 Dodge Poly totally rebuilt (shop rebuilt, including 30 over bore, hardened seats, etc.).

All depends on how much cash you will have to spend. If you are wanting a good daily driver, I'd stay with something near stock. Maybe a newer V6 EFI, or an older Buick as some have suggested. I owned an '88 Range Rover (3.5L V8) for a while and it ran great, but not good on gas, though the RR is pretty heavy. If its just a cruise night car and you have the cash, go wild man!

[Deleted User]

I just don't buy that argument, at all.



A quality rebuild, costs money - I don't care what engine you are talking about. We've built all kinds of engines, and the cost numbers always come up close to each other. The trick is, and always was, how much are you capable of/willing to take on yourself. The more power you want, the more dollars get spent.



Simplicity=Reliability. Its just as simple as that.



There should be more 262's built. Being as there are so many "homeless" 308 cranks around, a stroked up 269 would be easy. The kicker is it likely would deliver more usable torque per cubic inch per rpm than any of the alternative engines mentioned.



Mark

[Deleted User]

Thats what I'm saying Mark. I don't have the equipment to do my own machining, nor do I have the equipment/tools to build the heads or short block. Of course, if someone has all that stuff and the equipment and know-how, they can save a lot of cash. But few are the guys that can do that. I can do most everything on a car mechanically except the engine internals. Its been almost 30 years since I built a motor and frankly, I don't remember enough to put the internals together and trust it enough not to have the potential of making a mistake and blowing all the replacement parts and maybe a block or head as well. Thats cash I don't have. I much rather pay a shop to do that work which I can't AND have the warranty to boot.

I have priced a lot of things around here and the cost difference in just machining between Hudsons, Hemis, and standard blocks (like my 315 poly) are hundreds to thousands of dollars difference, the 315 being very cheap comparatively. And full rebuild kits for Hudsons are a lot more dollars than many other OHV motors out there (and Hemis for that matter). Believe me, I wanted a 392 hemi for my Dodge real bad, but after pricing all the parts and block, its way more than rebuilding the stock motor. Not as cool perhaps, but I want something I can drive everyday (and eventually it goes to my son) and not worry about nothing more than points and condensors for the next 100K miles. The original motor was pretty clean inside and if it wasn't for the seller's son dropping of a screw down the carb, it wouldn't even have needed punching out, probably not even needing a rebuild for a long while and it has 65K miles on it.

There maybe lots of 308 cranks around, but I read on this forum that guys are having a hard time finding "good" 308 blocks. I wouldn't spend a dime trying to rebuild a block that has to have major repairs to it. Throwing good money after bad if you ask me. The 308 has been pushed so much, thats why few want to hot rod a 262, it lacks the cool factor I guess.

My point is, if he wants a show car or cruise night car, he is just fine spending the cash on a flathead (or he has money to burn). Other than that, I would recommend something a bit more modern. After all, if flatheads were so great, modern mills would be designed the same way today.

Ultimately, only he can answer those questions.

Ol racer

FYI

For people that would like a Hornet Motor rebuilt and unsure where to have it done, there is a HET Club Member in Ohio that sells complete rebuilt Hornet motors to stock Specs with all modern components.



He has a Machine Shop nearby cabable of doing all the correct machining on a Hudson Block. (Actually I believe the Shop could do modifications too)



I think the price is around $2000 +core assembled & ready to install, but Dont quote me. For specific details Contact Tim Cheny 440 994 9173 or Dave Kostansek 440 293 4079



They have an excellent reputation...

timbersmith

Alright, to answer some questions that have been posed in one form or another:



In the near-term, money is going to be somewhat tight. I'm in the process of buying my first house, so that could very well be my primary project for at least another year. The engine is not the first thing I'm going to tackle at any rate, so I'll worry about those funds when I get to them. I'm also not set on the engine type being used, yet . . . but if a setup will fit with at most minor body mods, then I would gravitate more towards the Hudson heart than some transplant as long as reliability is good. Power level doesn't have to be high, either - a lower power level can be offset by transmission/gearing choices. It's also possible that I might take it to the track just for the fun of it, but that will be the rare exception rather than the rule.



I am also confident in my mechanical ability, especially when it comes to trying something new. I had finished rebuilding a TH350 a couple months ago for the first time, and am currently rebuilding my first engine (SBC 350 - new rings and gaskets/seals). As it stands now, the only things that I am [going to be] paying someone else to do are the bodywork and machine work - everything else I plan on doing myself (including totally new interior since there is none what-so-ever right now. I should have the experience to tackle it when the time comes). I don't plan on making a trailer queen - I want something that I could enjoy on the weekends and use as an occasional driver as long as the weather cooperates.



If I was looking to go with a Hudson engine, what should I look for and/or keep in mind? I am a total newbie when it comes to Hudsons and know very little about the mark as a whole, so I still have a lot to learn about 'em. So what should I keep in mind if I should try for a 262, besides the above contacts ? I've also been a member of the HET club for a year now, so I do have access to that source of information.



Thanks again,

Mike

[Deleted User]

well there are a few different variations of the "stepdown" 6 cylinder. the 48-50 engines are "narrow block" 262 or 232. Aluminium and iron heads available, single barrel on the 232.

then in 51 the wide blocks came along, the reason they got wider is to make room for the big bores in the 308. 308's can be identified by a rib that runs horizontally along the block at roughly the same height as the crank centreline. 232 and 262 all run the same bore, just a different stroke. if you want a 262 but find a cheap 232, its not hard to swap crank and pistons (same rods across all engines)

between wide and narrow anything bar block and heads interchange.

in 55 the 262 and 232 were dropped since there was only the 202 wasp (jet engine based on the 212) and"hash" hornet 308. the 55/56 308 can be easiest identified by the serial number being stamped into the deck of the block at the front left rather than on the side at the right. these engines have shorter cranks and run the dry clutch. i have been tormenting myself to find an easy fix to mate one up to a wet clutch (48-54) and use the larger "hash" input shaft in an earlier short bell but so far i havent found it.

the material for the 55-56 was changed to a cheaper, more common cast iron than the hard chromium material in the earlier engines. there is also a deeper valve relief in the block from factory which would be favourable if you want some easy performance for the street.

or you could run a 202 from a jet/55-57 wasp. pressure fed lubrication, hi comp AL heads and twin H intake setups are available. plus it was based on the 212 engine that you are replacing.

now did i leave anything out or mess anything up guys?

50C8DAN

I had not heard about a change in the casting metals between '54 and '55. Where is this documented?

Unknown

After joining the HET Club Bernie Siegfried (now deceased Hudson Engine Designer) touted the 262 as the best Stepdown era engine. His comments included balanced smoothness.



As was pointed out here the 232 is the same engine with a different crank. All of the wide block engines have interchangeable components. The machining differences between the latest model Hudson Blocks and the earlier engines can be duplicated. Several of the current crop of Hudson engine rebuilding experts has shared their expertise with detailed pictures. Much of the valve chamber work can be done using information available on a variety of websites. Heads are a story in their own right. If they are thick enough a light machining to straighten them and a check of the plug threads will make most usable. Blocks suffer from valve seat cracks which sometimes enter the cylinder walls. Blocks with bad cylinders can be bored oversized and if required sleeved. In recent past most of the HET community removed and replaced engines with another operable replacement. Many engines that were pulled ended up as scrap... some of those, when found, surprisingly are repairable.



Those who have access... Clifford Research Catalogs from the 80s contain a chart which identifies the interchangeable Hudson engine parts for Stepdown engines. I believe Alex Burr's website contains a replica of the chart.



The aforementioned information has always been available to the HET engine builder... today we can add adapters for better transmissions, aftermarket parts, the potential of using fuel injection and for those who have a manufacturing vent, computer controlled tpi and other capabilities.



BTW, the materials in the '55-56 Hudson blocks is indeed softer. This was done to reduce the valve seat and chamber cracking. There are several documents which make these announcements, Hudson Merchandisers, Dealer announcement letters and District/Zone distriburtor letters.



Looking forward to the next KOOOOOOOL Hudson engine idea....

timbersmith

Hey guys, just wanted to thank you all for the help again! You've actually got me thinking about going all Hudson, even if there might be some firewall massaging to make it fit (after all, I guess it is justifiable to make the changes as long as the heart is still Hudson, right?) . . . we'll just have to see where the future takes this project.



Thanks again,

Mike

[Deleted User]

The more I think about it, Rudy Bennett may have the right combo out there. A super inducted 262. Turbo or centrifugal, both seem right on.



The more I look at them, the more I like the 262.



Good post WildWasp, I enjoyed the info and agree completely.