Engine Clatter
I recently drove my '49 Super Six from Wisconsin to Reno (gray/white two tone), and am now in Palo Alto at my father-in-laws house for another week of vacation.
The problem I've had is as follows; About a month ago, back in Wisconsin, as I was driving to the Iola Car Show one morning, I heard what I can best describe as an 'intermittent clatter' coming from the engine. I immediately let off the gas pedal, and the noise went away. Kind of a rattling sound that would be there one minute and gone as soon as I let off the gas. I drove another 900 miles that weekend without incident. I chalked it up to possibly a rattling heat riser. Then I drove the 2000 miles to Reno without any problems.
Yesterday, as I was driving from Reno to California, around Sacramento I heard this same intermittent clatter noise coming from the engine. I let off the gas, and the noise stopped. Resumed cruising speed, and all seemed well. Another twenty miles down the road, the same thing happened. Lifted my right foot and the noise went away. After a pit stop near Berkely, the clattering noise became more regular, and it seemed for the first time when I floored the gas pedal, I could get this clattering sound to repeat on command. I decided then that I didn't want to continue to drive the car without fixing this disturbing noise first. I had the car towed to Palo Alto, and am now faced with the dilemna of getting it home to Wisconsin, one way or another. The heat may have been a factor, as it was 106 degrees as I went through Auburn, CA in the afternoon.
When this noise happens, I'm guessing it has something to do with the lifters, but I can't get it to repeat unless I'm driving the car under load, so I'm unable to hear it when inspecting under the hood. I can rev it up without any strange noise whatsoever when there's no load on it. The oil pressure and temp. gauges have not moved from their normal readings before, during, or after these noisy spells. I can get in the car and drive around town, and you wouldn't know anything is wrong at all, but I know it was becoming more regular today as I was driving in the mountains at freeway speed.
About the only part of my restoration that I really didn't have a hand in was the engine rebuild. Although I have replaced various external parts (head gasket, oil pump, timing chain, etc.)
Tomorrow I'll do another compression test just to check the results with the last one. At that time all cylinders were between 107 and 115, and seemed to be going up with every test in a predictable fashion as the engine is broken in. It's only had about 8-10 thousand miles put on it since it was rebuilt, which involved new bearings, rings (not bored), etc.
Has anyone of the many Hudson experienced drivers heard a similar noise along the way?
I appreciate any ideas or advice anyone can give me with this.
Thanks as always,
Doug Seals
P.S. I just found out that my nephew has a new fangled device that just might be what I need. It's a troubleshooting device where you attach several microphones to the suspect areas, and run the wires into a switchbox and then a headset. This way you can drive the car and listen to the various sounds emitted when under load. I'm going to try that in the next couple of days. I'll let you know what I find out.
The problem I've had is as follows; About a month ago, back in Wisconsin, as I was driving to the Iola Car Show one morning, I heard what I can best describe as an 'intermittent clatter' coming from the engine. I immediately let off the gas pedal, and the noise went away. Kind of a rattling sound that would be there one minute and gone as soon as I let off the gas. I drove another 900 miles that weekend without incident. I chalked it up to possibly a rattling heat riser. Then I drove the 2000 miles to Reno without any problems.
Yesterday, as I was driving from Reno to California, around Sacramento I heard this same intermittent clatter noise coming from the engine. I let off the gas, and the noise stopped. Resumed cruising speed, and all seemed well. Another twenty miles down the road, the same thing happened. Lifted my right foot and the noise went away. After a pit stop near Berkely, the clattering noise became more regular, and it seemed for the first time when I floored the gas pedal, I could get this clattering sound to repeat on command. I decided then that I didn't want to continue to drive the car without fixing this disturbing noise first. I had the car towed to Palo Alto, and am now faced with the dilemna of getting it home to Wisconsin, one way or another. The heat may have been a factor, as it was 106 degrees as I went through Auburn, CA in the afternoon.
When this noise happens, I'm guessing it has something to do with the lifters, but I can't get it to repeat unless I'm driving the car under load, so I'm unable to hear it when inspecting under the hood. I can rev it up without any strange noise whatsoever when there's no load on it. The oil pressure and temp. gauges have not moved from their normal readings before, during, or after these noisy spells. I can get in the car and drive around town, and you wouldn't know anything is wrong at all, but I know it was becoming more regular today as I was driving in the mountains at freeway speed.
About the only part of my restoration that I really didn't have a hand in was the engine rebuild. Although I have replaced various external parts (head gasket, oil pump, timing chain, etc.)
Tomorrow I'll do another compression test just to check the results with the last one. At that time all cylinders were between 107 and 115, and seemed to be going up with every test in a predictable fashion as the engine is broken in. It's only had about 8-10 thousand miles put on it since it was rebuilt, which involved new bearings, rings (not bored), etc.
Has anyone of the many Hudson experienced drivers heard a similar noise along the way?
I appreciate any ideas or advice anyone can give me with this.
Thanks as always,
Doug Seals
P.S. I just found out that my nephew has a new fangled device that just might be what I need. It's a troubleshooting device where you attach several microphones to the suspect areas, and run the wires into a switchbox and then a headset. This way you can drive the car and listen to the various sounds emitted when under load. I'm going to try that in the next couple of days. I'll let you know what I find out.
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Comments
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Hi:
I would offer the following... Walt M lives and has a workshop in the area your are visiting. I would have him take a look at your car before you do anything mechanical. I do not have Walt's contact information so ... the rest of you readers ... chime in with the contact information so this fellow HETer can get his Fine automobile headed east with confidence.
My personal comments are: Mechanical sounds which come and go are usually indicative of something which occurs when the conditions are right.... I would suggest that your noise could be other than the engine. What about failed center driveshaft bearing rubber mounts? Motor mounts lose of failed... I have had motor mounts allow the engine to move as much as 2-3 inches when under acceleration but look AOK when the engine is idling. Another problem I have experienced is noise coming from the sun gear in an overdrive transmission. In that instance one of the pins on which the small sun gears rode was pulling out of the race and allowed the gear to interface at an offset angle ... caused quite abit of noise.
Sounds like your nephew has the modern equivalent of the broom stick stethoscope that old time mechanics have used for years. To get the drive line sounds you can place the car on jack stands and freewheel the driveline ... this will also allow the check of the motor mounts.
Good Luck and hopefully the folks here will chime in and help.0 -
sounds to me like you have a detonation problem.
try a better grade of gas,California gas is terrible.try 89 or 91 octane.
you might also try retarding the timing a little.
i'm in San Jose,so send me an email if you need a hand,or want to borrow a timing light-george0 -
I was thinking wrist pins but you should be able to hear that sometimes when out of
gear. no?0 -
I has a nasty new clatter in my '36 terraplane the other day that scared the daylights out of me. It was just like yours sounds like, an intermittent sound. I thought it might have been a gone generator bearing as it had that sort of sound, like one that was not deep inside the engine. Strangely enough it was a dry water pump. As soon as I squirted in some grease the sound disappeared. I have no idea why it made that sort of sound rather than squealing. I hope you get your clatter fixed as easily as this one was!!!0
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I am on the side of bad gas. Since the problem comes and goes, and shows up only under load it most likely is a spark knock.You probably can trace it back to "fill ups" Retarding the timing will be a quick fix until you can fill up with a higher octane and or get better gas. I am told they have a different formula for the gas out there, as well as some other "different" things.Grinnn.
Dave W in Fl0 -
Walt's email address is HETMMordenti@aol.com. Remove the HET before sending. W0
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Walt Mordenti, 45 Skyview Way, San Francisco, CA 415-824-5222.
The first thing that I thought of was the gasoline in California, but you said it did it in Wisconsin, so I don't know about he gasoline theory. Is there any way that you could have a bad plug wire that is either cross firing or grounding somewhere on the block? That may be a possibility. Like Ken suggests, could be a bad motor mount. On the KISS principal; I would check everything that should be tight for being tight. Good luck. I know what it is like to be stranded thousands of miles from home. I've limped too many vehicles home that way. I feel for you.0 -
Well, here's my latest. The absolutely very first thing I did when I arrived in CA with this problem was to send an email to Walt. So far, he hasn't responded, so I'm guessing that he's on his annual trip around the country in his Hornet visiting their family and friends. I'm sure he'll get back to me, but I don't think he's in San Francisco at the moment.
The motor and transmission mounts are new, as are all of the other rubber parts (bushings, etc.) underneath. Plug wires and ignition stuff is brand new as well. I've been driving it around town for a couple of days now with no problems whatsoever. I'm still going to change oil today, and use that electronic stethoscope probably tomorrow. I thought I'd attach a mic to several places on the valve covers, and at the exhaust manifold, etc. Then I can get it good and warm and take a drive up a nearby mountain road to see what I can hear. After that, I'll still probably check the compression and maybe adjust the lifters again (this was also done precisely before I left for Reno). I'm liking the suggestions that it could be the gas, it started to really get frequent right after I filled up at a Shell station in (what the heck town was that?...there have been so many!). I guess I'm feeling a little better about it, but I know I haven't really worked it too hard since. It was probably a combination of questionable gasoline, extreme heat (well over 105 that day), 5 hours on the road at the time, (half of it mountain passes).
It might also be nothing more than the darn heat riser rattling, I can see where that could be possible under the right conditions. I'm sure I'm probably more vigilant to any extra noise right now, knowing I'm 2500 miles from home (did I mention I was planning on driving back through the Rockies to visit more family on the way home?)
Will keep you posted, I'm so grateful for all the concern and help....what the heck, I'm not going anywhere without my HET Roster anyway!
Hudsonly,
Doug0 -
If it is a spark knock,engine heat will certainly add to the problem . I have air conditioning on mine and a few times, the temperature has climbed a bit higher than normal in stop and go traffic, and I heard the "death rattle"..If you find a time when it is really bad, I would make a quick arbitrary retard of the ignition. then try driving again before it can cool down much and see if it helps. Another thought is that your distributor hold down clamp has loosened a bit. The rigid vacuum advance line will keep it from flopping around, but could shift a degree or so and cause lotsa racket! I really don't think you have an internal engine problem. CONTINUED preignition can cause problems though. Mechanical looseness rarely goes away and usually gets worse. I bet you make the trip without a problem. You aren't using an aluminum head by any chance are you? Did they even have them on the narrow block?
Keep the roster handy and have fun, wish i was driving my 49 Super six right behind you. Best wishes on your trip.
Dave W0 -
If you had the engine rebuilt it is likely that you fitted bronze valve guide inserts? I have encountered problems with these being just a little tight, causing the valve to jam slightly in the guide. If this happens, then it is slow in returning, resulting in the cam follower whacking the valve stem as it is still partly open. Backing off the throttle is often enough for the valve to cool down slightly and allow it to return to normal. Just another train of thought! A good dose of Marvel Mystery oil down the carburettor intake may just be enough to clear this problem. Good luck,
Geoff.0 -
Just a note: I never had the chance to talk with you In Reno, but I did get the chance to view your beautiful car.....I wish you the best in getting things resolved and back home safe and sound
BEST WISHES
TOM0 -
Walt's not coming east this year. He and Margaret are spending some time at Lake Tahoe, but I don't know where or how long.
Hudsonly,
Alex B0 -
Thanks for all the well wishes and kind words. I wish I could have met more HET'ers while in Reno, but it seemed like the week just flew by and was over with before I knew it. Can't wait 'till next year in Nebraska.
Just to answer a few responses....no, I do not have the aluminum head. Bone stock 262 (except for the modern add-ons).
Thanks for letting me know of Walt's whereabouts, I still hope to hear from him before I leave for Wisconsin this Saturday.
Tomorrow I'm going to 'wire' my car up with my nephew's electronic stethoscope. This thing is pretty neat. If you do a search for 'Steelman ChassisEAR', you can see more. Pretty simple device actually. Should be quite interesting.
Just a side note that a separate thread has made me think of. I know how much attention driving a nice Hudson gets me back home in the midwest, but I didn't really expect as much on the west coast, since there are a lot of nice old cars out here....but I've gotten just as many thumbs up and waves as anywhere. Today I had someone follow me to my motel and invite me to a car show he's putting on in this area in August where he wants to feature Hudsons.
I had the incredible fortune to have inherited my Hudson. As my love for all things Hudson continues to grow, I'm still amazed at what a fine automobile they produced. Perhaps the greatest enjoyment I've gotten from this car is the wonderful Hudson people I've met in two short years. It's like we've always been friends. I'm hooked for life, and so far this year have attended four major shows, and have at least that many smaller ones coming up in the fall. My Super Six has almost become a way of life for me. Thank goodness my wife wants me to be happy....whatever that takes!
Hudsonly,
Doug0 -
I had the same thing happen a few years back and when I removed the cyl head we found a sharp piece of carbon next to the spark plug hole on # 5 cyl.
The carbon was a Snow-White in color. It was glowing red hot causing my engine to knock. ( removed the carbon from the cyl head and no more knock) Hudsonly Rudy.0 -
Wondering how you are doing Doug,
On your way back East? I'm sure I'm not the only one that wishes you well.
I read a post on a Model A Ford board recently..The fellow was driving his Model A speedster from Florida to Alaska(Talk about roughing it!). He thought he had carburetor problems in the mid west until he found out about the ethenol in the gas! Even 5.5 to 1 compression ratios don't like that stuff!
Travel on.. Dave W. Fl0 -
I Had A Problem Similar To This, I Would Have A Rattle Every Once An Awhile. Till I Found Out What The Reason Was. That When I Put The Cover On It I Had Lower The Antena And Forget To Put It Up Again. It Was Hitting The Sun Visor. Lol0
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Just a note to wrap up this thread. I'm glad to say I arrived safe and sound in Wisconsin on Tuesday night. I left San Francisco on Saturday morning. Four 9-10 hour days of driving with no problems. Well, except when I went through the Sacramento area on the way out of town. I heard the same 'death rattle' noise as before. The conditions were also the same as before; Steep mountain pass, well over 100 degrees, etc. I simply went a little slower up the passes, and everything was fine.
The noise I heard could be simple preignition. Being weaned on overhead valve engines as I am, I'm used to hearing a 'pinging' sound when this happens. Not really a disturbing sound, almost musical actually. The sound from my flathead six was certainly more of a rattle. It shook me to the bone to hear it. I was certain I'd spun a rod bearing or lost a wrist pin, or something 'fatal'. I haven't heard it in over 2400 miles though, so it's now a distant memory.
So, in essence, I determined that I can drive just about anywhere in my '49. Except steep mountain passes at high speed in over hundred degree temps. I'll simply check this off of my list of places to drive....I can live with that. Morale of the story; Trust Your Hudson. I can't say enough good things about the stepdown. I totalled over 5000 miles with only a minor wire connection bugging me for the first two days (this was a cheap connector by my own design, so I can't blame the car for that!). I was cool and shady in the car, despite 90+ temps the entire time. I couldn't have been more comfortable in a Cadillac. Turned a lot more heads too! It was definitely quite the experience, I'm thinking about writing up a story and submitting it to Sam Jackson for any future WTN's that need 'filler' material!
Can't wait for next year's National. Kearney, Nebraska was my last night in a motel on the way home. 11-1/2 hours from there to Madison, WI. Heck that's only one day's drive!
Thanks for all the concern and support from all of you fellow HET'ers. Hope to see you soon.
Hudsonly,
Doug0 -
Doug,
We probably won't be making it to Kearny as it's just a tad over 11-1/2 hours from here in Maine. However, we will look fwd to seeing you in Auburn, IN, in 2007 and we invite you to make plans to be at the National Meet in the east, sponsored by the New England Chapter, in Marlborough, Massachusetts, in 2008.
That invite goes out to all of you (Yeah, I'm early - but I'm persistant!!!!!!!!!)
Hudsonly,
Alex Burr
New England Chapter
HET National - 20080
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