Oh, my. What did I do?

[Deleted User]

Fellows, I'm worried. And I need your help.

I accidently (not paying enough attention to the guages) got my '36 hot on a recent trip. Very hot! By the time I got pulled over it was boiling over and by the time it had cooled it took over a gallon of fluid.

It appeared, at the time, that the coolant was not cirulating from the radiator to the engine. I managed to let it cool and limp home.

A week later I removed the water pump to find what I thought was going to be an obvious problem. Nope! The impeller looks good (a fairly recent repbuild--I've only had the car a year) and the shaft is good. The impeller turns with the fan.

I back flushed the radiator and the engine as good as I could, but saw no chunk that could block flow. No thermostat.

It still apears that it is not circulating as it should.

Is it a coencidence that the oil light is flickering on now and didn't before the event?

What could stop my system from circulating?

What damage could I have caused by the overheating?

Where do I look next? (Maybe for a good mechenic? or that engine stand I've been wanting?):(



Happy to report my head lights still work, though...:)

Jon B

Just grabbing at straws, here:



1). You're SURE there is no thermostat? (Because a "stuck thermostat" would explain your problem.) And if so...why not? You really SHOULD have a thermostat in there!



2). Why do you say there is no circulation? Are you assuming this is the reason it's heating up?



3). Was the radiator full when you began the ill-fated trip? Now that you've filled it, is it holding the water? When you start the engine now, does it overheat?

Ol racer

Denver,

If you did not lose water 'inside the block' you may not have hurt anything. You need to use a thermostat though. I suggest re-filling with plain water then take for a short road test to learn if will get hot.



If okay, You need to learn the reason it got hot in the first place so dont re-occur... Had it been running warm? Was the coolant low or fan belt loose?Is one of the hoses without a spring inside and collapsing? Are all the 'baffles' in place to ensure Air goes thru the radiator and Not Over or Around it?



Lastly, the Oil Light may be a coincidence but your oil may have lost its 'properties' by overheating it, so if doesnt overheat on the road test, I suggest changing the oil. If still gets hot, you will need to look for internal problems.

[Deleted User]

Ok, Men, I'll start with a thermostat. Goes in the big hose, at the opening on top of the block, right? It never had one when I got it, as I changed the hoses.

So I have experience with Ford flathead V-8s and lots of guys I know don't run thermos in them. Why do it need it on my Huddy?



When I added H20 after it got hot it took it VERY slowly and seemed to fill up then, burp air to allow for more. Looking in the radiator hole, I see no water movement like I'm used to on my Fords that circulate.



No water showing up in the oil. I'll change it.

Man, thanks for the ideas, I'll carry on....:eek:

Jon B

You say it "goes in the big hose". You mean, I trust, that it goes under the metal hose outlet on top of the block...right? (Because that's where it goes!)



The reason to run a thermostat is NOT to allow the water to circulate through the system so fast, that it doesn't have time to be cooled by the radiator. At least, that's my story and I'm stickin' to it!



With the engine running (but before it's warmed up), remove your radiator cap to see if there are bubbles, indicating that there might be a cracked block or headgasket leak. (If either of these conditions exist, the compressed air/gasoline will be forcing itself into the cooling system. Conversely, the cooling system will be leaking into the engine when it sits.)

barrysweet52

Hello Denver. Yes the thermostat is in the housing on top of the motor where the big hose attaches. If the thermostat was stuck or closed this could explain why it took so long to fill. There is no need to fill the radiator to the very top like on modern cars. On one of my cars the previous owner had put a grub screw in the top of the water pump so that when he filled up the radiator he could bleed the air out of the water pump. I dont recommend this. Drive up a steep slope or hill will achieve the same thing. If the timing is out, the car will overheat. With wide guards and the radiator cap located where it is, Im surprised you could look in to see if the water was circulating. A radiator repair shop would have one of those electronic? temperature sensors that you point and find out temperatures around the cooling system. Good luck in solving your problem, Regards, Barry

Ol racer

Denver,

I would not think the worst with just one overheat incident, Those older Blocks are resilient.Be sure to install the thermostat correctly with the 'sensing spring' end into the block. (Usually one end is marked to radiator).

Geoff

It owuld pay to check your valve timing, these engines are notorious for the timing gear strating to lose its grip with the centr ehub, and slowly retarding the timing. If it is retarded you will need to replace the timing gear. If you carry ond riving with a bad timing gear, the next thing that will happen is an undefinable knock, which is caused by the rods colliding with the cam lobes. Detailed instructions for checking the valve timing are in the workshop manual. Otherwise, do check the thermostat, as others have advised fit s in the domed housing on top of the cylinder head outlet. If you have one fitted in the hose as well, this could be a problem - two are definitely not better than one! Lots of people think that if the water can circulate fastertit will be cooler so they take the thermostat out. - not so. the thermostat holds the water until it reaches the right temperature, then opens to allow the cooler water to curculate from the radiator. Without a thermostat sure the water will be cooler for a longer period, but when things get really hot, the water doesn't have time to cool down as it curculates through the radiator too fast, and exacerbates the problem. Good luck.

Geoff.

Geoff

I forgot to mention, the oil light must be co-incidental. Engine condition makes no difference to the operation of the oiling system.

[Deleted User]

My '37 T, series 71, does not have a thermostat, and no obvious provision for a thermostat. Also, it does not have the by-pass that is on thermostat-equipped models.

BN

Jon B

Bill, the cast iron neck that comes out of your cylinder head (to which the radiator hose attaches) has a slight relief on its underside -- just enough to hold the flange around a thermostat. There are two necks -- one with the two outlets (the by-pass type), and the "regular" with just the one hose. Both of them accommodate thermostats, though the by-pass type is not the same as the regular type.

[Deleted User]

Jon/ole Racer--do you guys know where we might ask for a t-stat?

The guys/gals at the local NAPA are still saying "for a what?" and scratchin' their butts...:eek:

Ol racer

I dont have the Terraplane number. Suggest measure the I.D. of your goose neck than go back to the Auto Store and check a few boxes of T/Stats that will fit your ID, An example is Delco # 131-8 is 2 7/16" Dia and Gates #33006 is only 2 1/8" Dia;

Use a T/Stat even if need to file a little to fit. (I suggest a 160 degree) and put 'coil' end toward block.

Jon B

Egads, I used to get mine off the shelf when they still listed "Hudson" at the parts store (think it listed '55 but don't guarantee it). I think that, for those 1930-'s to 1950's cars, there were only a couple sizes -- wide flange and narrow flange.



You can often find these at a bargain in the "$1" box, at your friendly local antique or hot rod flea market.



Here are some numbers I have jotted in my little black book, over the years. No guarantees but ask your parts guy if any of them work. Best thing is -- if possible, let some coolant out of your radiator and then remove the neck from the cylinder head, and take it in.



I didn't note whether these were of the bypass or non-bypass type. But if you do find one and it's the bypass, then note the application ('58 Ford? '49 Chevy?) and then you can look in the book for those cars, and chances are their non-bypass will fit yours. Anyway, it's a start.



Autostate 65-FHT-170-175

Harrison 3121276 (supposed to fit 36-38, plus certain StepDowns)

Gates 33036 (fits a '41 8-cylinder, might fit earlier?)

Sylphone (Fulton Mfg. Co.) #65F -- this is the bypass type for sure

Bridgeport 4HT

Doe BPH (160 degree)

junkcarfann

denverslim wrote:

Jon/ole Racer--do you guys know where we might ask for a t-stat?

The guys/gals at the local NAPA are still saying "for a what?" and scratchin' their butts...:eek:

How about the folks who sell Hudson parts such as Dave Kostansek, etc?

[Deleted User]

Jon, the cast iron outlet on my '37 T, series 71, does not have a relief to accommodate a thermostat.

The Mechanical Procedures Manual, Section 5, Page 3, states, in part, "In this system the thermostat, which is used on all models except the 61, 70 and 71 Terraplanes, is located in the cylinder head outlet - - -." This suggests to me that these models did not have thermostats.

Your comment makes me wonder if a machinist could turn a relief.

BN

Jon B

Well, that's a new one on me!



The parts book lists two outlets, one for the 70, 71 and 78 Terraplanes and the 73 (Hudson six) business coupe....and the other one for everything else.



I have always assumed that the 72-73-74-75-76-77 (Terraplane & Hudson) models had a bypass-type outlet (with bypass type water pump which has two rather than one hose connection)....and that the models 70-71-78 had the single outlet (with matching single-outlet water pump). And that BOTH were relieved so that a thermostat could be installed.



From what you say, it would seem that the single outlet has no relief, thus wasn't meant to be used with a thermostat. (If so, then why did the single outlet I ran on my Terraplane for years, have a relief in it?)



I think you can find a single water outlet with a relief, because I know they exist (I had one!). I'll bet Hudson introduced relieved outlets in subsequent years, so you should have no trouble finding one. Just contact some of the "usual suspects" who advertise in the WTN. Betcha Dave Kostansek has one, or Bill Albright.

[Deleted User]

1937 Hudson and Terraplane did not have the relief cut in them but 1938 and later housings did. I think the part #166271 hudson is the one you need . I put one on my 37 Terraplane.

jjbubaboy

Hey fellow Hudsonites,

Denverslims problem brings up a good question for me also. (Sorry you had the problem tho Denver!) My 36T doesnt have a T-stat either. According to the specs its a no pressure system and doesnt need one. But you are right it does heat up! What should go into it? What type and what temp?

Thanks as always!

TerraJeff

Jon B

jj, the shop manual says that all 1936's except the model 61 Terraplane, would have had a thermostat. If your water outlet (on the cylinder head) has no relief in its underside to hold a standard thermostat, then look for an outlet from the model 62 Terraplane or a Hudson model, or from a later 1930's Hudson or Terraplane. It's not clear to me whether the '36's that DID have a thermostat, had bypass or non bypass type; with the bypass type I guess you would need to find a mating water pump with the two outlets (one each, to mate with the two connections in the water outlet on the cylinder head).



As to which thermostat, I'd say it's more important to get ANY thermostat in there, low or high temp.

jjbubaboy

Hey John,

O naturally mine is the model 61! I dont think it has the cut out for one and the water pump is not the bypass type either.

Hmm....

Thanks!

TerraJeff

[Deleted User]

Okley dokely then....movin on.

I'm a little embarrassed to tell you guys what I found. But you deserve it.

The ole baby was out of time--so far out of time that I couldn't see the marks on the flywheel and couldn't even get to them by turning the distributer! I'm thinking something jumped. I had to pull the distributer and loosen up the little screw that allows it to turn on its axis to gain enough turn to find the correct timing. Oh and yeah it wasn't running very good at all but I had forgotten what good was until I got the timing right!

I am truely amazed at the difference in temperature this made. I tested the car with the same route, same ambient temperature, and similar conditions and could not get it to over-heat.

So, you think that's it?

Next I'll tackle the thermostat.



Been reading the service manual (always a dangerous thing for me to do) and it shows how to adjust the tappet to valve clearance. Being able to do this with-out doing anything but just pulling a cover off surprises me. What a novel idea! As I said I'm use to the Flathead Fords.

Would this be something worth-while for what I believe is a good runner,and can a dumbass like me handle it?...Slim

Ol racer

Retarded Timing definitly will cause a motor to run warmer. However, I would still put a T/Stat in. If nothing else do an okd racer trick by taking a large stainless or galvanized washer or (pc of metal) and make the hole little less than half the size (+/-) of the hose to restrict (slow up) the flow of hot water into the radiator to enhance cooling, since Non Pressure Systems still have T/Stats.

[Deleted User]

i would check baffle plate in water jacket on side of block beeto

Jon B

One cause of a sudden change in timing, is that the hub of the fiber timing gear, becomes detached from the outer part (the gears) and thus the shaft will actually move slightly in relation to where it should be. Sometimes the hub will actually move back and get back into alignment with the gears, causing the timing to mysteriously correct itself. Anyone with a pre-war Hudson with fiber timing gears, would do well to pick up and carry a spare timing gear and to study how to install it in a pinch. Not to say this will ever happen, but it is one the Hudson engine Achilles Heels.

[Deleted User]

If you decide to install a thermostat in your engine cooling system and cannot put the thermostat in the normal place, consider using an inline(in the upper radiator hose) thermostat such as used by other antique cars(Model A's).

The thermostat is welded in a short stainless tube about 1 and 1/4 inch long. I used a hose clamp to keep it in place. Keepem rolling. Bob

Geoff

Jon is right, you need to replace that timing gear NOW!

Geoff.

[Deleted User]

Groan--:eek:

Ok, I installed the t-stat today. Used the # that Ol Racer kicked out for the 2-7/16". Yanked the baffle plate and replaced the gasket.

Next--the timing gear. How do I access that? Is it in the book?

Thanks for all the help with the t-stat.

You guys are killin' me here. Lol...

Geoff

Yes, it's in the book. Remove dampener, take off timing cover, cut lock wires, remove three bolts, fit new timing gear, re-assemble!

Jon B

Someone was asking where to buy a water pump outlet. There are two on Ebay now, one is the standard single outlet http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1938-1942-HUDSON-NOS-WATER-OUTLET-1939-1940-1941_W0QQitemZ170267854363QQihZ007QQcategoryZ34201QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem



and one is the bypass type http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/New-Hudson-Thermostat-Housing_W0QQitemZ350102471175QQihZ022QQcategoryZ34201QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem



Note that these are for LATER 1930's Hudsons but there is a good chance that the bolt pattern will fit the earlier ones. (Verify by contacting seller with your dimensions). AND you will have to have the bypass type water pump for the bypass outlet, and the regular type pump for the non-bypass type outlet. Although I have seen bypass-type pumps available with the extra outlets plugged off, so they can be used with the non-bypass outlet.

[Deleted User]

DenverSlim

If you replace the timing gear set you might want to look for a aluminum cam gear replacement with the steel crank gear matching set. The Hudson part number is F165907. You might want to think about that the fiber gear for the cam are all at least 50 years old. I dont think there are any new ones in production? Chuck G.