49 Hudson trans..

jjbubaboy

Hey,

I am wondering if a 49 Hudson trans will fit/work or be a benefit in a 36 Terraplane?

Thoughts, advice, ideas?

Thanks

T Jeff











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Geoff

You may be able to fit it in, but there are fundamental differences in the throwout lever, and you would have to fit the upstairs shift. The '36 chassis is considerably narrower than the '49, so you may have problems with the side lever clearance. My advice would be to stick with the original. Apart from synchro-mesh on 2nd and top, I can't see any benefits.

Geoff.

jjbubaboy

Hey Geoff,

Thats pretty much what I figured, but just wanted to check.

Thanks,

Jeff

Jon B

Actually, if you intend to simply use a 3-speed (non overdrive) you can -- I believe -- fit the late 1952-up Borg-Warner 3-speed in there. Then, you can use a floor shift lever from an early 50's Studebaker or Jeep truck. Carl Weber has one of these on his '35 convertible (Carl, if you're reading this, please step in and correct me if I'm wrong!) If it fits Carl's '35, it should fit yours. You may have to use the later model bellhousing; Carl's has a '52 eight cylinder engine along with the '52 transmission, in his car.



The "benefit" is that you will get synchro, which is a darned sight easier to shift than the original crashbox.



However, you can NOT fit the overdrive version of the late '52 tranny into your car because it's too long to clear the X-member of the frame in your car.

coverton

Jon, If a BW was used after 52, then would a T-4 or T-5 [same tranny with OD hung on the rear]BW be made to fit w/o mods for the clutch and bellhousing ??I do realise a floor shifter would be in order,and much more sensible that the Rube Goldberg contraptions i have fooled with for getting a Hudson or Nash 50's BW OD to engage?? Thes BW T-5's are used all over the place and considered to be very good by many makes and models. We teach with them at the local CC.

Jon B

Short answer is: I don't know. If the t5 overdrive trans. is as long as the 1952 Hudson transmission with overdrive, then it won't fit the mid 30's Hudsons.

jjbubaboy

Hey Jon,

Thanks! Yes that is what I am after. I am just not a very good double clutcher and 'crash' a lot. Dont want to ruin an otherwise very good trans! What do you mean later model bellhousing?

Thanks,

T Jeff

Richard E.

If you are looking for an overdrive, the '40 fits, but these are very hard to find and are going up in price. I am restoring the Electric Hand in my '36T, which requires that I keep the stock trans. So I bought a set of the 3:5 ratio rear end gears made in England for Railton Club, Ivan Zaremba in San Francisco (HET member) is the source of these in US. I think that a set currently goes for $850, which is less than recent prices for '40 OD. I can cruise at 65mph with ease.

Jon B

I just had an e-mail exchange with the fellow who actually put the 1952 Hudson Eight / 1952 transmission into Carl Weber's 1935, many years ago. He says that, due to the particularities of how various Hudson engines / transmissions / bell housings fit (or don't fit) together, the only way you could use the 1952 tranny in your '36 would be if you also dropped in a StepDown engine! So, sorry to lead you on, like that.



You may be able to drop in a 1941 to 1947 synchro transmission -- possible even an overdrive version -- to your '36, but no guarantees. You would NOT be able to drop a floor shifter into it, however -- you'd have to convert your car to column shift. I know a fellow with a '38 who has done this (put the later synchro / od into his car, and changed to column shift) but I don't recall which year transmission and bell housing he used.



If improved cruising speed is your aim, I'd go for either the modern rearend gearset (mentioned above) or a complete rear axle transplant from a more modern car (with a better cruising ratio), with the thought that you can always replace the original axle some day if you wish.



However, if you're only considering doing this transplant because of the synchro gears, it would be easier and cheaper to learn the technique of shifting without clashing gears, LOL!

Geoff

On Jon's latest point, gear changing is a simple technique that most people have not mastered, on all '32-40 moedles with Hudson's so called synchro-shift transmission. In fact there are no synchronising mechanisms in the box, but the second gear is a constant mesh silent type, with a sliding dog between top and second. The secret is when starting of, to change gears a fast possible between low and second. Don't pause or try to double de-clutch, this will only cause a crunch. When going from top to second, go straight through again without pausing in neutral, but not quite so fast. Once you master the technique you will marvel at the speed of gear changing. When changing down from top to second, again you can just flick it straight trhough as fast as you can, there will be slight "click" as you do so. If you want to eliminate this you will have to double de-clutch, pausing in nuetral with the clutch out, and pop the accelerator slightly before depressing the clutch again and dropping into gear. Going from second to low, there is no other way but to double de-clutch the same way. Here endeth the lesson!

Geoff.

jjbubaboy

Hey all,

Thanks Richard and Geoff. I think the rearend gears would be my best choice as well. And with my shifting lesson and more practice I will get from crash to click in no time! LOL

Thanks again,

Hudsonly

T Jeff

Richard E.

I find the box pretty easy to use, I double clutch up shifting from 1st to 2nd and then shift slowly (single clutch) between 2nd & 3rd. I double clutch all down shifts. I get an occasional grind, but it usually works pretty well! I highly recommend the new rear end gearing. However, when you speak to Ivan, get good details on installation, there are two issues that need to be addressed. They are not a big deal, but you need to know about them in advance of installation.

Richard E.

I just read Geoff's piece, I will have to try his shifting method. Also, regarding engine swaps, remember, this is a Terraplane, it has a shorter frame than a Hudson of the same year. A 262 or 308 will not fit, however a 202 Jet engine is the same length as the 212 and will fit. I am not sure about fitting a more modern transmission in the car or the old trans to the 202, if anyone does know about this, I am interested. I acquired a '56 202 recently and if I ever did decide to put it in the '36T, I wonder what my trans options are? Can I keep the '36T with the Electric Hand?

Jon B

I would think that the answer is "no", because the only transmission with the correct brackets for mounting the Electric Hand vacuum cylinders, would the the '35-39 one. And I'm not sure that the '56 engine can be mated to the '36 tranny.

MikeWA

I can't help with much else on this thread, but I do have a Borg Warner T5 transmission at home, and can certainly measure it and post the result. An outfit called Wilcap (wilcap dot com) does make an adapter to mate the T5 to a 308, but I have no idea if any of that would work with the smaller engines.

[Deleted User]

Richard E. wrote:

however a 202 Jet engine is the same length as the 212 and will fit.

While the 212 and the 202 are almost identical in length, the shape of the engines and the location of the exhaust manifolds is certainly different.



Having never looked closely at the firewall of a '36 Terraplane, I cannot say whether or not these differences will have an impact on transplanting a 202 into one. They certainly will cause me to "relocate" a portion of the firewall in my '39 112. However, the T96 3 spd/OD that came with the 202 fits rather nicely into the frame. I did have to cut a hole into the frame to allow for the removal/install of the governor.



IMO take the easy road and change the rear!



Kevin C.



PS They say a picture is worth a thousand words.

One of these days I will learn how to post pics on this forum! LOL

Geoff

The '36 chassis is much more restricted than Kevin's '39, so there would be more to contend with. The Jet transmission has a long extension on the back, so the drive shaft would have to be shortened, and the clutch throw-out is quite different. If it aint broke, don't fix it.

Geoff.

Jon B

Hear, hear! Now let's just concentrate on learning "the shift" instead, it will be much easier and thriftier than all this work you're contemplating. Practice makes perfect.



Ready?



Now, one hand on the wheel, grasp the shift knob firmly with your other...thusly. Position your foot against the clutch, your back firmly against the seatback, your eyes straight ahead on the road, chin thrust forward, hat at a rakish angle on your head. Chin up. Stiff upper lip. Right, then, let's go...



One - two - three,

one - two - three,

one - two - [you getting it now?] - three,

one - two - three......

Unknown

Jon B wrote:

I just had an e-mail exchange with the fellow who actually put the 1952 Hudson Eight / 1952 transmission into Carl Weber's 1935, many years ago. He says that, due to the particularities of how various Hudson engines / transmissions / bell housings fit (or don't fit) together, the only way you could use the 1952 tranny in your '36 would be if you also dropped in a StepDown engine! So, sorry to lead you on, like that.



You may be able to drop in a 1941 to 1947 synchro transmission -- possible even an overdrive version -- to your '36, but no guarantees. You would NOT be able to drop a floor shifter into it, however -- you'd have to convert your car to column shift. I know a fellow with a '38 who has done this (put the later synchro / od into his car, and changed to column shift) but I don't recall which year transmission and bell housing he used.



If improved cruising speed is your aim, I'd go for either the modern rearend gearset (mentioned above) or a complete rear axle transplant from a more modern car (with a better cruising ratio), with the thought that you can always replace the original axle some day if you wish.



However, if you're only considering doing this transplant because of the synchro gears, it would be easier and cheaper to learn the technique of shifting without clashing gears, LOL!

If thats the case. How come I ran a 49 8 engine with the original 33 trans and rear in my 33 Terrp. for quite a few years. What you are trying to do is really quite easy without cutting anything. Lots of interchanging between Hudson products. The 33 Terraplane 8 shown in the upper left has column shift, later trans. and 3.07 rear gears, early Hudson 8 and will run 85 mph without breathing hard. It all fits

Richard E.

The '33 had the longer frame as it was made to fit an 8 cylinder, the later Terraplanes have a frame that is 8" - 10" shorter in the engine compartment and these big engines won't fit!!

Unknown

Only the 8 and long wheelbase 6 models. Several times I have posted on here about what fits these earlier Hudson products. He also would have a universal mismatch, they changed in 37. 36 used the smaller type. My point is this these things are very, very interchangeable, just depends on what you want. If it was my car I would just change the rear gear as suggested. Remember Ford had 3.54 gears in their cars and you know they didn't have any problems pulling them.

jjbubaboy

WOW! Lots of info, Thanks! A bit of debate as well~LOL

I like the idea of just the gear change but at that cost I would be able to refab/replace the whole thing with a 90's Ford 8.8 from mustang or explorer or ranger with what ever gears much cheaper.

Guess I will start measuring.....

Hudsonly,

T Jeff

MikeWA

Jon B wrote:

Now, one hand on the wheel, grasp the shift knob firmly with your other...thusly. Position your foot against the clutch, your back firmly against the seatback, your eyes straight ahead on the road, chin thrust forward, hat at a rakish angle on your head. Chin up. Stiff upper lip. Right, then, let's go...

Oh, Jon, you brought back memories with that. Mrs. Murphy, bless her heart, had "nervous eyes", and blinked constantly. I can still see her at the front of the room:



"All right, class– Sit up straight, feet flat on the floor, hands on the home keys, eyes on copy, ready--- TYPE!"



You had to hit 50 words per minute to get an A, and could take the test as many times as you wanted. I tested "early, and often", and hit exactly 50 WPM, exactly one time, so got my A. I really needed it, to sort of "even things out", if you get my drift.

Unknown

jjbubaboy wrote:

WOW! Lots of info, Thanks! A bit of debate as well~LOL

I like the idea of just the gear change but at that cost I would be able to refab/replace the whole thing with a 90's Ford 8.8 from mustang or explorer or ranger with what ever gears much cheaper.

Guess I will start measuring.....

Hudsonly,

T Jeff

Make it easy on yourself. Find a Dana 44 out of a stepdown. New gearsets available $150.00--$200.00 any ratio you desire. Move spring perchs in 1.5" each side, adapt ends of emergency cables to cross shaft. Same bolt pattern as 36 wheels & Less I forget Find a stepdown driveshaft and have a driveshaft shop put the rear yoke on your driveshaft. ALL HUDSON parts and no one will ever know. About a 6 hour job.

jjbubaboy

Hey,

Cool, thanks Tombia!

Any particular year I should look for? Different lengths, etc?

T Jeff



P.S. Hudson parts are a bit scarce here in Washington state!

[Deleted User]

I have an overdrive trans in my '37 TP...not sure of the transmission origins, but I have the floor shift and the dash O/D knob, and it works great!

Jon B

Tom, I assume this is the late 1952-and-up axle you're speaking of, right? But, won't he also have to put in spacers, due to the fact taht the '52-54 Hudsons have a narrower track than the '36's? I recall that the late Pete Sanders installed a rearend from an automatic transmission-equipped StepDown (don't recall which year) in order to benefit from the extremely good gear ratio in those rearends. However, the track was quite narrow and he had to do something to bring the tires outward.

Unknown

Jon, The rear I have in the car now is from a 52 or 53 hornet I got it from Bob Kirchner in Spring Grove Pa. Like I said I moved the spring perchs in and removed the sway bar bracket. Back in the early 1980's I had a 51 rear in it 3.58 gears. Both were the same width. He would need to measure the width on his orig. rear and the stepdown , but I don't think much diff between 36 and 33. In fact when I got my car from my uncle in 1965 it had a 38 112 rear in it. Your trans. is more than likely a 1940. 37 thru 40 trans are stronger than 36 earlier and were either handishift or coulmn shift in 1939. As an added bonus, I have 11" hornet brakes on the front of my car, only modification was to use the 33 inner bearings. It stops REAL GOOD. It has a 36 pedal steup which bolted to the frame with 2 bolt holes. SO simple, just moved the pull rod from the center cross shaft and pointed it forward to meet the 36 pedal setup beside the steering. Gas shocks, radial tires, engine .040 over, later 2 barrel carb. It will run with most anything out there, 85 mph or above is a piece of cake

Jon B

So you are saying that the width of both the 1951 rear axle (which you formerly had) and '52-53 rear axle (which you now have) fit perfectly in a 1933 with no spacers to move the wheels outwards?



Once again, judging from Pete Sanders' remarks when he fit a Step-Down rear axle into his '37, it would be necessary to add spacers to bring the wheels outward, to where they should be in the '37. I was only assuming that the 1936 would have the same problem....but maybe the 1937 track was wider than the '36.

Geoff

'36 and '37 track were identical I believe, but '33 -'35 incl were somewhat narrower. You cannot use 650.16 tyres on these, as they scrape against the inner body. As to the interchangeability of parts, Tom is correct, much will interchange, but not without some compromise, adaptation or modification in most cases. I much prefer the original thirties transmission for speed and ease of shifting, compared to the upstairs shift single lever box I have in my Hornet.

Geoff