What is everyone using for oil?

jjbubaboy

Hey Huds

I received a great little article with my local chapter newsletter about the lack of ZDDP properties in todays oils. I knew this was not a problem for todays cars but didnt really think about my 36.

I thought certain diesel oils still had ZDDP in them and would be a good choice. Is this so and which ones?

The article does mention about 'velvet' oil and can be obtained by a somewhat local auto parts here but at $55 a gallon, even though cheap as far as insurance compared to motor wear, is a bit spendy.

Thoughts...

Thanks,

T Jeff

Park_W

I think this is another one of those cases where you have to ask "How good does it have to be for my purposes." As far as our "splashers" are concerned, it's hard for me to imagine that we're going to see excessive cam lobe wear when the valve springs are no heavier than they are. The "big sixes" may be a different matter, but have we any real evidence that they, in normal service, have a problem with today's "regular" oils? I'm staying with major brand 10W-30; no additives. Not 'cause I'm an old fogie (which I AM), but because I'm not seeing credible evidence that something better is needed.

[Deleted User]

There is a good article about this in the Dodge Bros newsletter I just received. Basically what it said is the ZDDP wasn't added to oil until the 40's so our early cars never needed it in the first place. The new oils are tested for flat tappet wear on cams and until you get to high horse power engines with high valve spring pressures of over 50#s it isn't an issue, and the new additives protect agains't wear anyway without the ZDDP. What we with older engines have to worry about more is viscosity consistency which older oils didn't have but the newer oils all do. Our engines will not be harmed by removing something that wasn't available when they were built.



Harry

[Deleted User]

Sam, maybe you can contact John C. Bittence at

DBwelshfield@nowonline.net (remove the DB) to see if you can reprint the article "Is modern oil evil" in the WTN so that our membership can decide for themselves whether or not the removal of ZDDP will affect their engines.

Harry

[Deleted User]

Any modern oil has more zddp than was ever in the oil when Hudsons were new. Actually, the zddp does absolutely nothing in these cars because they don't have anywhere near the cam loading which causes the zddp to function. It requires tremendous pressure and heat before it does anything.

RL Chilton

Rod-



If that's true, I'll stop using Brad Penn oils. I'm using it 'cause I fell into the hype, and got scared. What about the current 7X we're building? Think we should use it for that?

Unknown

I agree with Rod's statement. I'm still waiting for Billy Mays to start hawking ZDDP on late night infomercials.

[Deleted User]

Dave53-7C wrote:

I agree with Rod's statement. I'm still waiting for Billy Mays to start hawking ZDDP on late night infomercials.

Billy Mays? He's a light weight.... I'll take Vince from the "Sham Wow" commercials any day! LOL

Clutchguy

I agree with Rod's statement. I'm still waiting for Billy Mays to start hawking ZDDP on late night infomercials.



Billy Mays? He's a light weight.... I'll take Vince from the "Sham Wow" commercials any day!



My daily late night chuckle!!! LOL Thanks guys:D

Unknown

I can see it now, Billy Mays and Vince doing a commercial together. Billy is screaming "You guys with flat tappet engines better buy our ZeeDeePee or your engines will not be OXICLEAN, rather they will develope an ORANGE GLOW before going KABOOM. But wait, then Vince will rush in with an amazing offer to clean up your engine's leaking vital fluids with his SHAM WOWS.

Geoff

Ive stripped down dozens of engines over the years, predominately Hudson Essex and Terraplane, and those that were in use before modern oils came on the scene were completely gunked up inside with sludge, varnish, and "mayonnaise". The ones most prone to cam and lifter wear are the splash-fed motors from '34 onwards, with solid "slipper" type cam followers. Before this the lifters had rollers. I have seen these solid lifters completely grooved, and the nose worn off the cams in extreme cases. In my experience, modern oils will largely minimise this wear, and keep the engine much cleaner inside. Even the Step-down big sixes will not need a Zinc rich oil, as the cam followers are very slightly rounded on the bottom, and revolve as the cam moves them around. All modern multi-grade oils have vastly improved friction modifiers in them. Go with any good reputable brand and don't be sucked in by the hype. Change the oil and filter (if fitted) regularly and your engine will stay clean and wear-resistant.

Geoff.

[Deleted User]

The only time you have to worry about oil and cam wear is during the break in period of a new engine rebuild. Follow the procedure for breaking in your cam and use plenty of prelube. Their are many guides to these procedures. After the break-in period choose your oil change it often and you will be fine.



I have not lost an engine yet.



Like the swallows migrating this topic comes up yearly. I can almost use it as a calendar.....LOL

[Deleted User]

For the past two years and about 3000 miles I've used Wall Mart's 15W-40 motor oil with the higher zinc rating (CI versus CJ) for my '50 Pacemaker (Deluxe!). It does seem that the "lack of zinc fear" has been over rated by some and that regular brand name motor oils are indeed sufficient wear protection for our Hudson engines. However, I will state that ever since I've begun using 15W-40, I've never had to add oil between oil changes as I generally had to using 10W-40 or 10W-30.



Dan

[Deleted User]

In older engines and our race engines we use a diesel oil such as Rotella 15w-40. In addition to the higher levels of zinc etc. (which you may or may not need according to whom you ask) it is better suited to handle the levels of combustion byproducts, which are produced in greater amounts by diesels and older engines that don't have the super tight tolerances of your modern engine. The lack of super tight electronically fuel injected engines means more fuel, ash, heat and other contaminants end up in the oil. The diesel oil is already formulated to handle these conditions and it doesn't really cost more than a quality regular oil. Just a little extra insurance. Just my personal take on the matter.

junkcarfann

Back in the old days, (for me the 1950's) you never heard of an engine lasting over, say, 200K miles. Any car with over 90,000 was considered worn out. 100K was the kiss of death...the car was virtually unsaleable.



Down at the local garage, they would rebuild at 50,000 or less...I remember there was a machine shop that had a portable crank grinding machine that could grind the rod throws in the car...a common need back then.



Today, its a completely different story...my F150 with a 302 has almost 200K on it, and the engine has never been apart, and it runs fine, and uses almost no oil.



All this with modern engines that have much higher loads on bearings and cams, and often rev much higher.



I believe that Geoff is correct...the major difference is the modern oils with their additives.



Makes you wonder what the old survivor engines would be like inside if back in the 1930's onward they had modern oils.

Unknown

One would think that if there was even a slight chance that engine oil manufacturers could get hit with a flood of lawsuits initiated by owners of engines with flat tappets going bad due to general oil incompatibility or the lack of ZDDP, they'd do some sort of publicity campaign or warning lable on their products. Alternatively, one would think that engine oil manufacturers would be the first to sell an 8oz bottle of additive for $14.95 which is probably as much as they pay for a 55 gallon drum. Heck, has anyone bought a ladder lately that didn't have several dozen warning lables on it intended to help deflect potential lawsuits?

[Deleted User]

Dave53-7C wrote:

One would think that if there was even a slight chance that engine oil manufacturers could get hit with a flood of lawsuits initiated by owners of engines with flat tappets going bad due to general oil incompatibility or the lack of ZDDP, they'd do some sort of publicity campaign or warning lable on their products. Alternatively, one would think that engine oil manufacturers would be the first to sell an 8oz bottle of additive for $14.95 which is probably as much as they pay for a 55 gallon drum. Heck, has anyone bought a ladder lately that didn't have several dozen warning lables on it intended to help deflect potential lawsuits?

Modern engines are mostly roller engines or the parts are made from harder alloys than the engines we run so they don't require as much of the additives which older higher friction engines need. Thats where your specialty oils come in. The main concern with zinc. and other additives is damage to cad. converters and environmental issues. People with solid cams and high spring pres. are typically going to automatically gravitate to a specialty ie. more expensive product. Also most damage seen by the lack of zinc etc. was during breakin not high mileage and people wanted to lynch the parts supplier not the oil man.

[Deleted User]

That stuff is a bunch of crap. Change your oil regularly and you won't get a build up of anything in it. Makes me laugh all the claims about these additives. Drove my car from coast to coast engine has 84K on it and still running strong.



Change my oil every 2000 miles. Runs like a champ. My other Hornet pulled the engine down it has 145K on it could find only minimal wear on the cam. And my other two 308's I am rebuilding have the same thing. Oil was changed regularly and all was fine.

Unknown

Exactly. My point was that what company in their right mind would put a product in the marketplace that would damage any engine. If ZDDP or the lack thereof was/is so crucial to certain engine types, there would have been a publicity campaign and/or warning lables on products.

junkcarfann

Dave53-7C wrote:

Exactly. My point was that what company in their right mind would put a product in the marketplace that would damage any engine. If ZDDP or the lack thereof was/is so crucial to certain engine types, there would have been a publicity campaign and/or warning lables on products.

There was a thread about this a few months back. In Hot Rod magazine, the aftermarket cam manufacturers such as Crane were all saying that their flat tappet cams were now failing on a regular basis, which coincided with the removal of ZDDP in oil.



I know that those cams have high loading pressures due to the springs used in high-performance applications, but the point is that those engines were damaged by a product change in the oil, and no warnings came from the oil people.



Apparently the hot-rod market is small enough so that the need for warnings is not necessary.



In any case, if something goes wrong, you can always blame the government, which mandated the oil formulation change in the first place, because the zinc was contaminating the cats.

[Deleted User]

There is definitely one sure thing about oil- nothing causes more hate and discontent on an internet forum than an oil discussion!



:rolleyes:

[Deleted User]

Russel, How much spring pressure in the 7X?

[Deleted User]

My Last Reply Never Got Posted, So Here Goes Again - On The 7 X Engine- What Valve Spring Pressure Are You Using? New Cam And Lifters?

tigermoth

i agree with the majority here..ZDDP wasn't in our oils when the cars were built. i am always amazed at the guys (you should see the MG TD forum) who are ready to dump anything into their oil without any thought as to how THEY are reformulating their oil and the effect this now untested concoction effects their engines. the store stuff...even the cheap brands... have to meet a testing standard. to the guys that are running the diesel oils..check the labels because the ZDDP is coming out of those too. skinned knuckles magazine did a great couple of articles on this. to those guys who still want to dump some witch's brew into their engine, testing shows too much ZDDP will accelerate damage to the valve train..reference the skinned knuckle article. regards, tom

RL Chilton

Rod-



Valve Spring pressure hasn't yet been determined. Engine work (at least the 7X conversion) will start in the next 4-6 weeks, I hope. It will have a "street-tamed" cam, as this car will be driven on the roads and replacing timing chains every 1500 miles as you do with a full-on race cam would not be practical (or even fun).



I'm still sunk real deep right now in major bodywork. Back end has been completed. The old cowl came off this morning and the "new" cowl is almost ready to be mounted . . . should be in a couple of days. Then we'll be ready to blast the whole shell. Hopefully it will warm back up for that, as I'm going to blast it myself.

[Deleted User]

RL Chilton wrote:

Rod-



Valve Spring pressure hasn't yet been determined. Engine work (at least the 7X conversion) will start in the next 4-6 weeks, I hope. It will have a "street-tamed" cam, as this car will be driven on the roads and replacing timing chains every 1500 miles as you do with a full-on race cam would not be practical (or even fun).

I wonder if the new all-roller chains that 21st Century is selling wouldn't hold up a LOT better, even with the full-on race cam?



Please post pics of your work. I know I'd like to see the job start-to-finish.

Ol racer

Regarding reducing ZDDP levels I feel it is most critical for 'freshly rebuilt' OHV engines with flat tappets and increased valve train pressures and components that need to be mated. In a fresh rebuilt L head Motor as long as the cam and lifters are coated with a good 'Cam Pre-Lube' probably would be sufficient.



I personally know a two St Rods with OHV engines that worn the cam lobes this year because of sticking with their old favorite brands of oil and were unaware of the ZDDP reduction. So the lobe failures are occurring in OHV Engines anyway. After learning they replaced their cams I showed them a couple Oil Articles regarding reducing ZDDP and they switched to diesel oil rather than additives at this point.



Incidently my one Modified Hornet motor has 80# Seat pressure and 200# Open pressure so I am using 30Wt Rotella T with a splash of GM Zinc additive be it right wrong or indifferent.



When the Levels drop further I probably will switch to the new Castrol Classic Car oil or Racing oil. (TBD)

[Deleted User]

Present common oils are good up to 400-600 pounds valve spring pressure. Use cam pre-lube on assembly. All this assumes that cam and followers are properly hardened.

[Deleted User]

RL Chilton wrote:

Rod-



If that's true, I'll stop using Brad Penn oils. I'm using it 'cause I fell into the hype, and got scared. What about the current 7X we're building? Think we should use it for that?

Break in your new engine using 10-30 and a bottle of STP. After 500 miles of driving change to 10-40. I make spin on oil filter kits which is 100 per cent better that the stocking type. In your cooling system along with your anti-freeze, add 4 ounces of Soluble oil and one bottle of water-wetter. This is Walt's way to run a new Hornet engine and since my rebuild I now have driven my car 118,586 miles and still runs strong. Walt Mordenti

[Deleted User]

My first exposure to information about the removal of ZDDP was from an old friend, a former Hudson guy, who said that the worry about the lack of ZDDP was that the old bronze and brass components of the old engines would experience deterioration. I'm not saying that what he said is the absolute truth, because I know nothing about such details of engine lubrication, but am curious if there is any truth to what he told me.

Middletom

esfoder

I use DELO 15W40 in everything from MACK Concrete trucks to my Power stroke pickup to my XR 650 dirt bike. Lots of Chevy Ford and even Catrepillar front end loaders. Works good for me.



Merry Christmas



Dusty



I think the major concern is to change it often. Or like my twin h air cleaner says "oftener under severe conditions".