Metering Rod Setting
With all the Twin-H Hornets out there, has one of our enterprising folks come up with an accurate way to check the carbs' metering rod height? If wanting to fabricate a gauge like the original, even having the factory dimension doesn't help a lot without knowing the exact shape of the lower end of the factory gauge. I tried to buy an original gauge not long ago, and the supplier wanted something like $40 for it. A gauge for the WDOs and WGDs would be welcomed as well.
[This comment posted also on the Spark Plug thread]
[This comment posted also on the Spark Plug thread]
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Comments
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This was posted on an earlier thread.
"The metering rod gauge for a Hudson WA1 Carter is #T109-102. I will make you one for $25.00 plus $4.00 shipping. Norm. (909) 984 5544"0 -
Hi Park,
Here is a scan of the metering rod gauge. The WA 1, WDO, & WDG gauges are the same basic shape, "Only the lengths have been changed to protect the innocent". Oh sorry, been listening to too many old Dragnet radio shows on the satellite radio lately. LOL! The gauge is made of aluminum stock that is 1/16" thick. Laying it on a steel scale ruler, the Length from the tip of the point to the "Step" is just a human hair width less than 2 9/16". That's as close as I can get today, as I don't have a verier caliper on hand to be more exact. Hope this may help.0 -
Thanks for the details, Mars55 and Essex4. Mars, I may take you up on that offer. I've made a crude but usable one before, but never could be sure where the length reference point was on the bottom end.0
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ESSEX 4
I have a Carter WDO that I need to adjust the metering rods on. The Carb Shop guy didn't tell me that this was something I needed to measure before I took the carb apart. Do you know what the approximate dimension would be for the WDO?0 -
OOPS! I forgot to tell you that the metering rod gauge is a J-1305.0
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Look up Dover1 in members list and contact him, a great guy , helped me out. BUD0
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Essex4 wrote:
The metering rod gauge is not measured, tip to angle. It's measured from the angle at the bottom where it sets in the main metering jet. Has to square in the jet. WDO's 8 cylinders 37 to 39 use tool T-109-27, 40 to 47's 6 cylinders use tool T-109-113. Walt.Hi Park,
Here is a scan of the metering rod gauge. The WA 1, WDO, & WDG gauges are the same basic shape, "Only the lengths have been changed to protect the innocent". Oh sorry, been listening to too many old Dragnet radio shows on the satellite radio lately. LOL! The gauge is made of aluminum stock that is 1/16" thick. Laying it on a steel scale ruler, the Length from the tip of the point to the "Step" is just a human hair width less than 2 9/16". That's as close as I can get today, as I don't have a verier caliper on hand to be more exact. Hope this may help.0 -
What is the recommended method for changing the height if not correct?
Mark0 -
Mark, the best first step would be to purchase a reproduction service manual from the club store. That would answer this question and a whole lot more. There's a little tab that determines how far down the metering rod can be drawn by vacuum when the engine's running. You adjust by bending that little tab.
Mars55 made me a repro of the correct gauge for the WA-1 carbs, and I marked on it the shorter setting for the WDO that's in my '47C8. So I have the means now to check them both, which I've just done. Both were operating a fair bit lean.0 -
Park W wrote:Mars55 made me a repro of the correct gauge for the WA-1 carbs.
As much I would like to take credit for doing the gauge, I didn't do it. I just provided the reference.0 -
Park W wrote:Mark, the best first step would be to purchase a reproduction service manual from the club store. That would answer this question and a whole lot more. There's a little tab that determines how far down the metering rod can be drawn by vacuum when the engine's running. You adjust by bending that little tab.
Mars55 made me a repro of the correct gauge for the WA-1 carbs, and I marked on it the shorter setting for the WDO that's in my '47C8. So I have the means now to check them both, which I've just done. Both were operating a fair bit lean.
Useing the trial and error method for what ever reason then, would you bend the tab down or up cold setting to make one run leaner, opposite to run richer ? BUD0 -
It sounds like a couple of you have gauges for the Carter WDO carburetor. Can anyone give me the dimension? I think it's a crime to charge $30 apiece for that gauge. Something that critical to a rebuild should be part of the kit.0
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BYUROD wrote:I think it's a crime to charge $30 apiece for that gauge. Something that critical to a rebuild should be part of the kit.
Hey BYUROD, try pricing one of those gauges from Daytona Carburetor, etc., if you really want to get a shock. The folks at Daytona just laughed when I asked for a little break when buying two different ones.
And yes, I did write the thanks to Mars55 too hastily ... Norm B. actually made the repro gauge. Dimensions of the WA-1 are given above ... the WDO setting is 1/4" less.0 -
Park,
Thanks for the information. I was looking at the carb over the weekend and it doesn't appear to be a whole lot of range on the adjustment. I'll give it a try this week and see how it works.0 -
BYUROD, I looked at the dimensions again and saw that the WDO height figure is more like .20 less than the WA-1, rather than .25. That's a significant difference, as performance is pretty sensitive to this setting. When I first got my '47 C8 on the road recently after a lot of shop work (complete engine rebuild, etc.), all was well except that when I stepped on it even mildly at about any speed, it would skip a couple of beats before accelerating. I found the metering rod setting was off a fair bit on the lean side (rods sitting too low). Setting them to spec totally eliminated that skipping problem.0
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OK here goes, I printed out the picture that Dave posted here of the correct metering rod for my carbs. I scaled it to the exact dimensions he mentioned and cut it out and transfered it to metel and built myself a tool to the correct dimensions.
Then I used it on my car, I found that I had to bend the tab down a lot to get it to the correct settings. Basically you remove the metering rod and insert the tool down so it bottoms out on the orifice with a completely closed throttle. Then you make sure that the pin for the metering rod just clears the tool without actually contacting it when you push it down.
Right so far? I had to bend the tab down quite a bit to accomplish this I hope I did it right.
Then I put every thing back together and put my unisync on the carbs . They were out quite a bit with the rear carb sucking a lot less air, so with a warm engine and the chokes off I adjusted the throttle settings so that the ball rose to the same level on both carbs at idle. Reset my chokes and reinstalled my air cleaners and took it for a drive. I could hear a difference when I opened the throttle up.. more air going into the carbs indicating that they were both opening more evenly.
This is my first time at doing this so if I did something wrong please comment.........thanks0 -
walt's garage-53 wrote:The metering rod gauge is not measured, tip to angle. It's measured from the angle at the bottom where it sets in the main metering jet. Has to square in the jet. WDO's 8 cylinders 37 to 39 use tool T-109-27, 40 to 47's 6 cylinders use tool T-109-113. Walt.
WHAT Walt says makes sense to me , In other words the the tip will be the same size as the jet at a given point regardless of angle and then the CORRECT distance to the step from there must be known. IS THAT NOT RIGHT WALT ? AND DOES ANYONE KNOW THAT DISTANCE ? Looks to me like you would need a factory tool to make an accurate repro. or ALL dimensions taken from one BUD0 -
I thought that dimension was given above in Essex4's post (actual from tip to reference surface, not what the book says).0
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Park W wrote:I thought that dimension was given above in Essex4's post (actual from tip to reference surface, not what the book says).
Not trying to be picky guys, what I saw was tip of point to step/referance point and that is not where it rests in the jet, WHAT I'm attempting to do is have someone that knows come up with the dimension from where it rests in the jet to the step and then it can be made accurately, I'd sure like to make one I was confident in and not just close enough to run . BUD0 -
37 Terraplane#2 wrote:
You can not set the metering rod with out first setting the accelerator pump rod. Read your manual on this, for this is what sets the metering rod to the correct height. This adjustment is made with the throttle screw backed out so butterfly is closed tight. WA-1's must be set 1/4 inch throw using the bottom hole. Adjustment is made by bending the pump rod at the bottom where it connects to the butterfly shaft. If not set correctly you will run rich or lean which is bad with todays gas. To check how your engine is performing, use your index finger, put it in the tail pipe and make a half circle , if it comes out wet, to rich or using oil, as it should be dry and no sign of carbon. There is a lot more to the carburetor than just set meter rods. Walt.
WHAT Walt says makes sense to me , In other words the the tip will be the same size as the jet at a given point regardless of angle and then the CORRECT distance to the step from there must be known. IS THAT NOT RIGHT WALT ? AND DOES ANYONE KNOW THAT DISTANCE ? Looks to me like you would need a factory tool to make an accurate repro. or ALL dimensions taken from one BUD0 -
walt's garage-53 wrote:
----Very true Walt, and these old carbs have been passed around,messed with, so what helpfull person with the experience/knowledge is gonna educate the rest of us from step one / BUDYou can not set the metering rod with out first setting the accelerator pump rod. Read your manual on this, for this is what sets the metering rod to the correct height. This adjustment is made with the throttle screw backed out so butterfly is closed tight. WA-1's must be set 1/4 inch throw using the bottom hole. Adjustment is made by bending the pump rod at the bottom where it connects to the butterfly shaft. If not set correctly you will run rich or lean which is bad with todays gas. To check how your engine is performing, use your index finger, put it in the tail pipe and make a half circle , if it comes out wet, to rich or using oil, as it should be dry and no sign of carbon. There is a lot more to the carburetor than just set meter rods. Walt.0 -
37 Terraplane#2 wrote:
The main thing is that the metering rod jet is the correct size. 0.101.5 thousands. I have a machinist that does work on Doctors equipment and he will reworks the jets. Drills out center, install a plug and redrills it out too 0.100.5. This takes up for wear on the metering rod. I'm trying to get his cost down but no luck so far. He did my 2 and it's works, on the open road at high speed I can get 22 MPG using air condition. Walt.----Very true Walt, and these old carbs have been passed around,messed with, so what helpfull person with the experience/knowledge is gonna educate the rest of us from step one / BUD0 -
Walt, I certainly agree there's more to these carbs than just the metering rods. But the metering rod setting does have a significant effect on performance and fuel consumption. And your point that certain adjustments interact with others is important. In this case, the key is that you don't change the pump stroke setting after you've set the metering rods.
BUD, I suppose the newbie here may have to learn it just like a lot of us did ... get the manuals and read. And read, and think about it, then read again. And don't start messing with sensitive adjustments until you've gotten a real understanding of how whatever you're working on works. Of course book knlowledge only goes so far, but it's an important start. The real education comes when you actually work on a number of these critters and see what problems arise and how they're dealt with. The guys I go to for advice are the ones who've worked on a LOT of these cars over the years. Walt's certainly in that category.0 -
Park W wrote:Walt, I certainly agree there's more to these carbs than just the metering rods. But the metering rod setting does have a significant effect on performance and fuel consumption. And your point that certain adjustments interact with others is important. In this case, the key is that you don't change the pump stroke setting after you've set the metering rods.
BUD, I suppose the newbie here may have to learn it just like a lot of us did ... get the manuals and read. And read, and think about it, then read again. And don't start messing with sensitive adjustments until you've gotten a real understanding of how whatever you're working on works. Of course book knlowledge only goes so far, but it's an important start. The real education comes when you actually work on a number of these critters and see what problems arise and how they're dealt with. The guys I go to for advice are the ones who've worked on a LOT of these cars over the years. Walt's certainly in that category.
PARK , Yeah, I know about Walt, and you, and a bunch of others on here and I certainly appreciate ALL. Right now I have a WA-! that needs going thru so I'm copying every bit of the specs and procedures I can find and when I think I about got it I'll have at it. Any more bits and advice, toss em out here . THANKS---BUD0 -
when I made the tool I replicated the angle at the tip as well as the length, then practiced with a WA1 carb on my bench. I probably should take the metering jet right out and make sure the tool matches the angle of the jet...good point. These are one barrel carbs guys...we are not trying to recreate a moon landing here....... good grief.0
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I'm not in the class with Park nor Walt, but stumble my way through a bunch of different carbs of different types. Sometimes there's an advantage to being a low buck hot rodder.
The jets can be bought new, and cheap. they are the same as the new Edelbrock/AFB carbs. I was pleasantly surprized that Carter never changed the jet tooling, nor has Edelbrock.
I've also measured the steps on the new metering rods for AFB carbs vs. the older looped rods of the WCFB/WGD/WDO type carbs - also the same dimentions on the steps in terms of distance from the rich tip. In addition, the newer step up springs are the same length and diameter as well.
Meaning, if Walt's Dr./Fabricator could design a piece to replace the "T" that holds the looped rods with a system to hang the newer "L" shaped Edelbrock metering rods - you could recalibrate the whole metering rod/jet circuit with new pieces to whatever you wanted. From fuel to vacuum actuation point via new springs.
Or, some tool and die guru could design a tool for us to rebend the top of the newer "L" shaped rods to form the loop.
Reading Park's posts, I'd be more inclined to think his springs have gotten weak and causing the rods to raise at such a low vacuum point as to make the carbs seem lean.
I'll hitch a link to the JEGS carb parts page for the AFB.
http://www.jegs.com/p/Edelbrock/Edelbrock-Performer-Series-Metering-Rods-and-Metering-Jets/749168/10002/-1
Mark0 -
MARK , I think this is certainly worthy of keeping in a web site or some place accessable to everyone being as the old parts just keep getting older and more worn out and replacements harder and more expensive to find . Be nice if we had such a place for this sort of info here on the forum , all the things that guys come up with but get lost or harder to find as the threads get older. ----TED ?--- And I know a dang good machinist that's apperantly like you , he does'nt like being told YOU CAN'T DO THAT !! THANKS, BUD0
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37 Terraplane#2 wrote:
These parts will never work in a WA-1 carburetor. Walt.MARK , I think this is certainly worthy of keeping in a web site or some place accessable to everyone being as the old parts just keep getting older and more worn out and replacements harder and more expensive to find . Be nice if we had such a place for this sort of info here on the forum , all the things that guys come up with but get lost or harder to find as the threads get older. ----TED ?--- And I know a dang good machinist that's apperantly like you , he does'nt like being told YOU CAN'T DO THAT !! THANKS, BUD0 -
walt's garage-53 wrote:These parts will never work in a WA-1 carburetor. Walt.
Have you tried them?
Any of them?
Mark0 -
`Hudsonator wrote:
----TRANSLATION = "Don't tell me I can't do that " --figured you was like that. BUDHave you tried them?
Any of them?
Mark0
This discussion has been closed.
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