'38 112 Convertible with twin exhaust
Comments
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Hey Dave,
Looking good!
I sure would like to see some more pics of that exhaust, especially the manifold if possible. I am wanting to split mine on my 36 but am concerned about the closeness of the distributor.
Thanks,
Jeff0 -
This is the only picture I have of the manifold at this time. When I get over to the machine shop I will take a few more and post them. I sure would be interested in hearing from someone that has an idea why this manifold might have been installed on this car. Thanks, Dave0
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Thanks, Dave.
Yes, that is a very interesting manifold. A neat idea as well....
Jeff0 -
There was a 1938 112 conv. for sale last year on ebay that was claimed to be a Indy pace car. In one of the images that was with the for sale add you could see what looked to be a twin man. ex set up like the one on this 38 conv.. I sent a copy of the image to a friend of mine Mr. Jim Seals and he confermed what I thought was a twin ex man. At that time I also emailed the person listing the 1938 for sale and requested more close up images of under the hood.I never recived a reply to my request. The car was listed twice on ebay and to my knowlage the reserve price was not meet. I have not seen the car since. That modification to that perticular car sure got me to thinking about that car being the Indy pacer from 1938 with performance mods. Man-O-Man was this really the car? Who set up that ex. system and why? More top end speed for pacing? Less back pressure? How did it sound? What other modification might be on it ? Where is it now? If a Hudson had wings ?
Robert0 -
That box is the standard choke stove (same as I have on my '37). The cable carries the hot air from the choke stove, up to the automatic choke on the carb. Vacuum in the carb, pulls the heated air up to the carb. That's why, sometimes, you will hear a mystery "whistle" from the engine in the vicinity of the choke stove, due to a slight air leak where the cable meets the choke stove. b\
However, I believe the stove is normally mounted to the manifold in the area aft of the carburetor (where there is actually a flat boss machined on the manifold for it), not up front as shown here. That may explain why there it's clamped to the manifold. In actuality there are two screws holding it, which go into tapped holes in the manifold. Generally, these choke stoves rust away in time and the screws that hold them do, as well. And they often break off at the surface of the manifold, requiring one to drill them out and re-tap the holes. Which is generally done only by obsessed choke fetishists like myself, LOL!0 -
The guy I bought the car from does not have an E-mail address so I doubt he was aware of Robert's inquiry. This guy is a car trader by profession. He owns several very high dollar one of a kinds that would fit very nicely in anyone's collection. During the time my car was listed on E-bay he took a few unnecessary shots from some of our fellow HET Club members. I can assure he would go out of his way to let anyone see his cars or answer any questions they might have when it comes to a possible sale. This is how he makes his money. Rick spent a full day working on a car at his shop last Friday. I am pretty sure he can verify the above to be accurate. He never claimed to me this was the actual '38 Indy Pace Car but did say it was possible. I did not buy the car strictly because it "might" be the actual car. Prior to my purchase I contacted a number of HET Club members and discussed this possibility with them. Per Rick's request here are a few other modifications we have found during the restoration. The car had a '37 Terraplane motor, two barrel carb and a three speed column shifter. Park Waldrip researched the shifter and found this to be a standard feature on late model '38 112's. The right side rear end had a 1" spacer installed between the frame and the rear end. The right side front end was also shimmed about 1" as well. The left side rear end was positioned 2" forward. Please do not ask me if the car drove crooked going down the road. I was told the car had not been driven since 1973. There was also an electric fuel pump that was bolted to the frame just below the passenger side door. As always I look forward to any feedback regarding my posts.0
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This is all great stuff. Good to know where the 1938 ended up. I want to say that I do recall how the 1938 was picked on when it was listed on ebay. I myself try and keep an open mind on finds like this 1938 and looked for clues about the cars history ( EVERY IMAGE TELLS A STORY) . That is how I noticed the dule exhaust flanges and another thing about paint. All of this got me thinking that I would try and own (KEEPER) this 1938. Win lose or draw, pacecar or not I did know this to be a rare and interesting automobil with an interesting story.
My wife and I talked it over and I decided to contact/email the person listing the 1938 through the ebay auction in the "SELLER INFO/ ASK A QUESTION" section. I inquired twice for more images, mostly of engine compartment and chassis. I can say with out a doubt no responce came to my ebay "messages"about the 1938 listing/ auction. What ever came of my inquiries I do not know. I do know this changed my mind about the auction but not the 1938 112 convertible.That is all.
Kindest Regards
Robert0 -
The previous owner paid a guy to put the car for sale on E-bay. I am pretty sure he would have responded to your requests if he had been made aware of them. Hate you missed out on this car. I have lost a lot of money and a significant of blood restoring the car. On the other hand I would not want to trade the experience for a round of 65 on the course. I am pretty sure Rick can vouch for me when I say the original color on the car was really mandalay ivory. There were several parts that showed the color in odd places and under bolts, washers and nuts.0
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Pretty interesting stuff all the mods sound like the standard stuff you see for a car this age. Over the years people have added mods to keep it running.
Pulling these cars apart you see all manner of things. Makes for an interesting restoration. Be nice to get it back on the road.0 -
FYI
Lending more mystery to the Car's History that perhaps it was the Pace Car set up to run a higher speed pacing the Field because Oval Racers used to raise the Right side to send weight to the left so when turning left the chassis would balance. Often they would add a leaf or two on the Right to accomplish the same result.
Additionally, by moving the left Rear forward would make the car 'lead left' entering a turn. (I would think on a hard hwy surface it would have had unequal tire wear though., but in '38 very few hard roadways existed).
The electric Fuel Pump if hooked inline may have been 'added insurance' to ensure car didnt stall or lean out pacing...
Of course the 2bbl and dual exhaust increased the performance to an already good performer. If someone made all those physical changes I would check the camshaft lobes and/or look for a racing ID Manufacturer (Isky, Winefield, or other Mfg's Name) from that Era to determine if a high performance cam. If checks okay I would re-install it...
Lastly, column shift, if not factory installed, was relatively new to the Industry (and the 'hot set-up') and often converted on cars in that Period to make room on the floor for an extra passenger, that may have been needed for that event, just like years later, ('50's) columns were converted back to floor shifts as a Fad..... Just my thoughts...
Someone probably bought the car afterward and was oblivious to all the modifications...0 -
Really interesting, thread here.
Rick, I take it Dave's in your neck of the woods? Great to get by and see this intriguing automobile.
Dave, is there any way to substantiate that this car might be the actual pace car? Also, in those days, how many pace cars were utilized? I know in more modern times there are a "stable" of pace cars on hand, but I thought that back then, there was only one. Also, Hudson only got the opportunity to pace the 500 for one year only, '38.
Next question, if you can authenticate the car, would the plan be to put the original logo back on the car? Really cool addition, if it turns out to be the pace car. Regardless, you're doing an awesome job on a very rare model. All convertibles are worth saving, race history notwithstanding. Oh, and Mandalay Ivory is a beautiful color for this car. Is it going to retain that piece of originality? I'll be anxious to see this beauty in person.0 -
The wheels are already painted with Mandalay Ivory and clear caoted as well. It took me a couple trys to get the color correct but Park Waldrup directed me to the right paint company to provide the correct mix. The serial number of the car is 8956021. My research would indicate this number would be given to a car a more towards the end of the 1938 model year but maybe someone here can verify this. I will contact the Indy people to see if they have any other pictures of the car on race day. Jack Miller sent me a really good picture of the car recently that I had not seen before. It appears the "Pace Car" had a sign attached to the door rather than being painted but again I will have to check into this as well. I have not made a determination on whether I will add this feature when the car is completed. Rick is correct when he commented that I have picked up a lot knowledge the hard way while actually taking part in the restoration. Hopefully I will be able to better answer questions regarding the car when it is finished. Hope I covered everything you brought up.0
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Russell, it was my understanding there was only one pace car for the race in 1938. However, Hudson evidently provided the track with several other Hudsons to be used during the week. According to the Indy site the car was given to the race winner, Floyd Roberts. Unfortunatly Mr Roberts was the first past winner of the 500 to be killed in a race. That occured the following year, 1939.0
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Rick, based on the information in Alex's handbook I tend to agree with you regarding when this car actually rolled off the assembly line. Just the same, until proven otherwise it appears that there are very few if any models of this car still in existence. None have been registered with our Club. By the way I just found out my dogs vet has a '34 two seat Hudson with a rumble seat. I saw it a few years ago and did not remember the make of the car. I did however recall it was restored comparable to the beautiful '36 pick-up recently posted on this site. This will give you and your wife another reason to come back to Hickory. Hopefully I will have progressed far enough on my car to also give you something else to look at.0
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Thanks for your reply Russell. I have a question for you regarding the number of 112's built in late 1938. How did you figure my car was one of the last 20 112's off the line since the serial numbers were based on when each finished car left the assembly line and not according to model?0
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dave kastelic wrote:Thanks for your reply Russell. I have a question for you regarding the number of 112's built in late 1938. How did you figure my car was one of the last 20 112's off the line since the serial numbers were based on when each finished car left the assembly line and not according to model?
That wasn't me, Dave . . . it was Rick. Part of Rick's quote:
"According to the info, the 1938 Hudson Model 112 vehicle serial numbers ran from 89-101 to 89-56040. Given the serial number of Dave's car - 8956021, it appears that his car was one of the last twenty 1938 Hudson model 112 vehicles built that year - so it is unlikely that it had yet been made when when the Indy 500 was run."
Point well taken. Who's to say that total production of 112's ended at the end of the production year (Sep. or Oct. of '38)? As a guess, I would say that it is most likely a very late car and made towards the end.0 -
Alex-
Do we have breakout by months and ser. #'s for '38? I didn't see it listed at the above link for '38's.0 -
Sorry to both Rick and you Russell. Please understand my intentions were not to question your statement, just to gain information as what sources are out there that I am not aware of. I have to believe there is no one in the world that would be happier than me if it could be proven this was the actual Pace Car. That being said I do not believe it was possible based on the serial number. Win some, lose some, hopefully wake up the next day.0
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No worries, Dave. Y'all have peaked my curiosity, though. I really enjoy the automotive history stuff.
I sent an e-mail to Alex trying to gain some more light. Also, checked my references, which don't amount to much. The G.I.H. (Burr), Butler's, and went through my other resources, which turned out to all be Service Bulletins ('38's included), which don't help in this case. Alex is actually the best source, we'll see what he has to offer. Such a shame so much information was lost in the merger.0 -
Dave-
I went back and re-read most of your original (?) post about the "rarest Hudson?".
Question for you: Is your car a Standard or Deluxe 112? Couldn't seem to locate the answer if it was posted before.0 -
According to the information published in both the Master Chassis Group Parts Book, 1930 thru 1939 and the Interchangability Manual published in March 1950, the beginning serial numbers for the 1938 Model 112 started at 89 28566. If according to the above info, the last produced 112 was #89-56040, then a total of 27,475 units were produced during a somewhat shortend production run for the Model 112, as it was introduced late in the model year - I think in April or May 1938.
Jerry
53jetman0 -
I believe there were 27,475 total number of Hudson's made in 1938. I have been told there no records to show how many 112's were included in this total. In regard to Russell's question regarding deluxe or standard. Here you got me. Mine is a convertible coupe. It is definately not a broughm. I am not aware of a standard or deluxe designation for '38 112's.0
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RL Chilton wrote:Alex-
Do we have breakout by months and ser. #'s for '38? I didn't see it listed at the above link for '38's.
First year, so far, that I have a breakdown by months and serial numbers is from 1946 up.
Have been, so far with little luck, stirring the pot trying to get people to start checking what they may have in their collections they might lend out so we can get the material into the on-line library. Who knows what might turn up - good example is the nice 1929 bulletins I got from Pete Booz at the National meet.
Hudsonly,
Alex Burr
Memphis, TN
NEChudsontech09@yahoo.com (Drop the NEC)
www.hetclub.org/burr0 -
how about a better picture of the exhaust manifold showing how the rear outlet was added in? I would love to see how this was done because it looks like a second factory flange was added....
later,
PaceRacer500 -
I will take a few pictures of the manifold when I get over to the machine shop. Should be within a couple days.0
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Jerry and Dave-
I'm sorry for the contradiction, but the following is what I turned up, having gone over everything late last night:
1) Total 1938 production was 51,078.
2) 50,270 of which were passenger cars and 6,588 were commercial vehicles.
3) Shipments were 43,682.
4) In 1938, there were 56 different models offered and 16 different utility models, a record for Hudson.
5) Model 112's, the star attraction for Hudson for '38 were introduced in January, 1938.
6) 112 Production for 1938 was 27,475.
7) After May 1, 1938, 112's were designated either Standard 112 or Deluxe 112. Both were Series 89.
8) Deluxe models included a wide band of stainless steel on the walnut grain finish of the dash and the steering wheel and column were colored to harmonize. Same color was applied to the window moldings of the closed cars.
9) A new feature in '38, and only on the 112's, was the front-hinged hood, which would become standard in '39.
10) A more attractive upholstery was used on the Deluxe models (although the convertibles were usually outfitted with leather interiors).
11) There were 8 different Std. 112 models and 8 different Deluxe models available.
12) Some of the accessories available were: Clutch control, Radio, Hub caps, tires, wheels, rear fender plates, electric hand, hill hold, heaters, defrosters, spare tire hose and fitting, side mounts, different colored fenders, sgl. or dual fuel pumps.
13) The '112' designation referred to the car's wheelbase.
Dave-
The reason for my question about your car being the Std. or Deluxe model: The pace car and all subsequent cars offered to race and timing officials were the Deluxe versions. It seems other than the interior appointments, no other differences seperated the two models (Std. and Deluxe). Either this was simply a marketing ploy, (noting the very subtle changes), or as it was introduced on May 1st, it might have been a way to set the race vehicles apart from the herd, and was continued throughout the year. If a customer wanted the same car that was used at the 500, then they would have to "step up" to the Deluxe version.0 -
Rick-
For the most part, Std. Catalog of American Cars, the G.I.H., Butler's, various Technical and Service Bulletins and other materials I got from Alex, and a few older, general information type of documents on older Hudsons, etc. A lot of the information matched from one source to another, so first assumption was that it might be accurate (or that one source simply copied another's info). Wish I had more reference materials, but for the most part, as Alex has indicated, so much was either lost or simply resides in someone's stash, probably without even knowing what they might have.
Regardless, the car has an interesting history with the modifications, particularly the age of the modifications, as you pointed out.
An interesting aside (to me, anyway) is that with 51K production and 56 different models to choose from in the pass. car line, then add in options and color choices, it might just be a miracle if two surviving cars from '38 were exactly the same. I'm sure some models probably don't even exist anymore.0 -
Thanks for all the info guys. I am leaving for Tampa in the AM to watch my son play in a golf tournament. Will attempt to get back with replys to your posts when I get back. Thanks for your interest.0
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Rick
That's EXACTLY the one I mean. There is another one that covers '46-'75. I've seen them recently go for those astronomical #'s, because I think they are now out of print, but some honest searching around, and you can find much more reasonable pricing. I'm sure the classic car boom of the last several years has made these much more precious, along with everything else car-related.0 -
Back in town Rick. I will check out the manual. Thanks0
This discussion has been closed.
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