Full line reproduction webpage.
Dear Hudson Community,
Thank you all you your earlier support for the business endevor. I have found you all very gracious to work with. After carefull consideration and hundreds of hours of work I came to the realization that the project was not going to work for me. Full refunds are being processed and there are only a few open accounts left to process. Some of you have small refunds still coming to cover the transaction fees. It is in the best interst of the Hudson community that I make this desicion as you all deserve a hassel free environment when you want to work on your car. Thank you for welcoming me into your group so warmly and I hope you will still be willing to purchase my signs. I however will have to limit my Hudson sales to the signs only.
Thank you again,
Michael Theisen
Thank you all you your earlier support for the business endevor. I have found you all very gracious to work with. After carefull consideration and hundreds of hours of work I came to the realization that the project was not going to work for me. Full refunds are being processed and there are only a few open accounts left to process. Some of you have small refunds still coming to cover the transaction fees. It is in the best interst of the Hudson community that I make this desicion as you all deserve a hassel free environment when you want to work on your car. Thank you for welcoming me into your group so warmly and I hope you will still be willing to purchase my signs. I however will have to limit my Hudson sales to the signs only.
Thank you again,
Michael Theisen
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Comments
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Michael,
Sorry to hear that it didn't work out for you. We appreciate your effort to make this a viable business. However, some things in life(and business)just don't work out the way we hoped.
I wish you all the best in the future!
Kevin C.0 -
Wow, what a shame. I ordered a much needed part and received it quickly. I had been looking for the part used for a few years and then you showed up with it. Thanks, I'm really sorry it didn't work out.
Lewis )Mendenhall
Hmmm I think I need another sign!!0 -
Thnak you Lew! I could use all the sign sales I can get!0
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Michael I too thank you for the effort and wish you well. I also wish I could've been a customer.
To everyone in general: HET is a driver's club and always has been. I hope we will continue to be but we do have to have some future vision on the reality of our situation. The first Hudson was made 1909 and since 2009 a model year of Hudson will become a 100 yr old vehicle ever year for the next 50 years. Our members/owners will no longer be people who bought the cars new but people who drove them in the '60's and '70's when no one wanted them and after them...only their family members and pure enthusiasts. There's factors we can control. (reproduction parts) and those we can't (gasoline composition and its' availability). With suppliers like Dave K out of the fold and stores like NAPA limiting the older stuff they carry, if the other suppliers don't pick up the slack at some point we're going to have to work together in-scale a lot more to keep them on the road. After 100 years a car just doesn't get a bad fuel pump, it gets metal fatigue, broken castings, and problems like that no matter how well it was built. So we either plan for this or we decide to let this thing die with us and ride it out as long as we can. Either is a valid option. My .020 -
Aaron D. IL wrote:Michael I too thank you for the effort and wish you well. I also wish I could've been a customer.
To everyone in general: HET is a driver's club and always has been. I hope we will continue to be but we do have to have some future vision on the reality of our situation. The first Hudson was made 1909 and since 2009 a model year of Hudson will become a 100 yr old vehicle ever year for the next 50 years. Our members/owners will no longer be people who bought the cars new but people who drove them in the '60's and '70's when no one wanted them and after them...only their family members and pure enthusiasts. There's factors we can control. (reproduction parts) and those we can't (gasoline composition and its' availability). With suppliers like Dave K out of the fold and stores like NAPA limiting the older stuff they carry, if the other suppliers don't pick up the slack at some point we're going to have to work together in-scale a lot more to keep them on the road. After 100 years a car just doesn't get a bad fuel pump, it gets metal fatigue, broken castings, and problems like that no matter how well it was built. So we either plan for this or we decide to let this thing die with us and ride it out as long as we can. Either is a valid option. My .02
Well said Aaron D. My hope is that someone will carry on my scanning and adding to the online library when I'm no longer able to do it. I seriously doubt I'll get everything done!!!!!! :unsure:
Hudsonly,
Alex Burr
Memphis, TN0 -
So what exactly would be involved, financially & otherwise, in someone taking on Full-Line? It's a shame to let the business die again...Also, where can we see examples of your signs?? All the Best, Bob Bennett
reply to: rbennett47@sbcglobal.net0 -
I need to order a part, but the Full Line website only displays a welcome page, and there are no active links or contact info displayed. Has anyone had luck with this in the past couple of days (this is Feb. 28).0
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Have you not been following this thread? Full Line is no longer operative.0
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Full Line Reproductions has ceased operations. Please scroll back on this to see the full details.0
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No, I have not. I discovered the note from Mike Theisen after I scrolled down; previously I saw comments about people having made purchases. I had an email from him a couple of weeks ago saying that they had in stock the rear window seal that I needed for my 47HS6Br. After I tried to order this week, the website did not work.
I had ordered a rear window seal from K-Gap about a month ago. They took payment via PayPal and emailed an order confirmation, then I had no contact from them and they never sent the part. They have ignored all followup email and phone calls, so I got PayPal to effect a refund. Now I am desperate for the seal. The one K-Gap provided to me 18 years ago turned out to have a defect, and I need to replace it because it leaks.
Phil Waldrop0 -
Park, have you checked Lynn Steele and Metro Moulded Parts? It's quite possible that our Hudson vendors don't extrude their own rubber and may have gone to these people. I can tell you for instance, that Metro has the molds to make the (molded, not extruded) vent windows for 1934-37 Hudson convertibles, because I myself gave them the molds! They probably have more Hudson stuff as well.
Oops, sorry! Phil, I mean!0 -
Perhaps the next Hudson parts supplier should have a 3D printer and a CAD program and then we won't have to depend on big manufacturers.0
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That would be great. I was never able to find correct front fenders for my '37H8Cp; maybe someone can laser scan a good pair ant then laser sinter new ones from powder....
Of course we are now able to scan a part and then create a low-volume production mold from the CAD database.0 -
Good idea. I will try them.
Phil (Park's baby brother :-)0 -
Neoprene extrusions are fairly inexpensive to produce; you'd think more Hudson guys who needed specific but hard-to-find extrusions would have gone this route. They would get what they need, get some extra, and sell it off to finance their "habit".
Back in '78 I had some extrusions run by a small rubber company in Tennessee. The custom die (made from my sketch) cost $28. The rubber was 57 cents a foot. I got to keep the die! Okay, prices are a bit higher now, but it's still not a million dollar investment!
There's a Hudsonite out in Iowa who sells the rubber extrusion for around the 1935 roof inserts. Bet he found a company that does this sort of thing inexpensively.0 -
With K-Gap and Full Line both faltering it would be wise for HET, maybe the historical society, to purchase the existing molds.0
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I'm glad that to some extent people are having success with K-Gap. Another HET member told me that he had gotten prompt delivery of a part from them recently, but also commented that a number of others had not. I may have been willing to wait a bit if there were some basis for the delay, but over a period of weeks there was neither communication from K-Gap nor any response at all to multiple phone and email inquiries - nor in response from inquiries to them from PayPal. It should not have required more than a minute to type and send a quick reply as to the order status.
I had another supplier rebuild the vacuum advance from my distributor, and he explained up front that a delay of a few weeks would be involved because he needed to build a reasonable batch of orders for the same component in order to make the tooling changeover worthwhile. As a manufacturing engineer, consultant and manufacturing educator, I understand that. But I also understand customer focus as a fundamental element of business success.
Lack of communication can be frustrating and disappointing. A couple of years ago I discussed - with an engineer from Timken, chatting directly at a meeting - the possibility of having a custom batch of rear axle bearings made up for stepdowns. He expressed interest, but then my efforts to follow up were met with a total absence of any reply.
I do hope that the large majority of HET members are having success in getting their parts in a timely basis.0 -
The advantage of the right non-profit legal structure is that you don't have to show a profit, only cover your costs as close to equally as you can. If you run a batch of parts and show a profit you can then sink the profit into more tooling costs or some other expense to get rid of that profit. Perhaps the currently constituted club is not the right legal structure but there may be one that would be logical to use. If you only supplied parts for 48-54 step-downs in HET you're talking about roughly 3000 cars total. Plus not all of those car may need said part at the moment. So can you do a run like that and have it be profitable? Or would you need some other legal structure where profit didn't matter?
- Maybe scans or pre-made CAD blueprints would be the answer... you archive blueprints for all those Hudson parts and then you get a 3D printer, then when surviving Hudson's need parts you print them out or you send the files to a company that does 3D printing in various materials and they print it out for the Hudson's on an as-needed basis. (thinking out loud here)0 -
I think that part of the overall problem may be that people are trying to make it a 'profitable' (income-producing) venture, and as you point out, the volume is just not there. The club may be non-profit but, as you mention, the real member interest in the parts supply end of things is to have a source of parts - not as a means of funding a private enterprise or the club operations. The HET club could operate things as a non-profit; just price things so that expenses are covered, including administrative expenses.
As regards tooling, I doubt there is any legal basis for existing supplier protection of the Hudson part designs. If a small shop in the U.S. cannot afford to produce our parts at a price that is acceptable, then there are offshoring services that can make and manage arrangements elsewhere. I am strongly for 'buy USA' but realistically, if an affordable domestic supplier cannot be found, then using a Far East operation for our miniscule volume is not going to impact the national economy.... I can facilitate quotes from specialty polymer/rubber job shops if we were curious about current tooling and production costs and volume requirements. As far as chrome castings are concerned, they could be 3-D printed on demand from ABS plastic and 'plated' in a more environmentally friendly operation than pot metal. But maybe this option would not provide a product that is 'real' enough to suit some folks.0 -
The following is IMO, so please,no offense is intended. Phil, I totally agree with you. I don't know if you folks watch the NADA valuations, but the price of Hudsons are flat, but the cost of restoring one has gone up alot. In the last 4 years my Hornet has not gone up a dollar, while other models from GM & Ford have gone up about 10% in the last 18 months matching the stock market. I know this is a labor of love of our brand, but if we are to attract new,younger members to HET then availability of parts is essential. Go to cruise ins. The first thing people ask, who are interested in entering the hobby, where do I get parts for these cars? So, we tell them. So, they INVEST in a HET product,then they actually attempt to purchase parts, and maybe they do OK. But, if they run into road blocks, such as many state on this forum, we will have made a cynical new owner, who may never trust your advise again, & look to get out of a bad deal fast. That is where I believe that the National Board must consider stepping in and stabilizing our parts availability. Maybe,even selling NORS parts, or purchasing businesses whose owners no longer wish to operate. Maybe acting like a BBB might work. And most of all, start selling advertising in the WTN for hobby related businesses. Use that money to offset WTN costs. The reason Merritt Marks started this club was to pool resources to preserve the Hudson tradition. We are letting it slip away, by not investing in the future. Ron Sotardi, 21 year HET member0
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As a newer HET member, I agree with Ron S's statements above. Weather stripping and window seals are a very important part of the restoration process and cannot hardly be fabricated. To invest in the car, spend thousands of dollars on it in paint and bodywork and countless hours hunting for parts and paying shipping to refurb, replate, rework and get usable cores is dissapointing to be told windshields gaskets, back window gaskets and vent window gaskets are nowhere to be found.
And when everybody is looking for the same 5 parts that all wear out on every car, and no repros are availabale and no fabricating can duplicate it -its time to buy a Chevy instead?
As far as making and selling low volume products is concerned, I do have some experience in this dept. The key so making a go of it is actually commiting to the business, answering the phone/ emails every time and most importantly MAKE THE PRODUCTS AND STOCK THEM FIRST. If you dont have one on the shelf to sell, you wont sell any. most people cant and shouldnt wait for products. customers call when they need it and have the money to pay for it.
Making people prepay and then making them wait 6 months to get a part is chicken shit business practice. I understand there is limited demand for niche products, but the prepay then make method makes it exponentially worse. You can adjust your batch size you make or buy, find a different manufacuture or a different method to make the same stuff. But having a catalog of stuff of which you sotck 10% of the items, does noone anygood and makes customers not even call you in the first place (like K-gap examples).
Its hard to profit in a niche business, but if you dont commit to actually making unique parts beforehand, stock them, answer the the phone and ship them out - people will stop calling altogether and you wont sell anything at all and you will make zero profit. Artist1 gave it a go and committed to making and selling parts and his phone rang off the hook becasue he had the parts available to buy - pricing didnt even hardly matter. He was as busy as ever with much opportunity to sell enough parts to "profit" from. Unfortunately he walked away.
Demand is there for the parts, if the repro parts do not get made at all, the Cars themselves will never appreciate and the brand will eventually die alltogether.
my .020 -
Great comments. We do need to make our HET cars visible, which means keeping them in driving condition. We also need to avoid turning off potentially interested people by displaying cars that seem to be neglected or give the impression that it is hard to keep them in good shape. Old unrestored originals will always have merit and be enjoyable, but there far more that do not need 'as-is preservation'.
I think that it would be easy to put together a fairly accurate Pareto chart of which parts are needed most in order to prioritize actions. Three categories would be parts needed to keep cars on the road, parts needed for prevention of deterioration, and parts needed for restoration/maintenance of appearance.
We know from club registrations how many of which cars are out there, and estimate the volume required. One concept to consider on extrusions may be to co-extrude two adjacent profiles of similar cross section size and demand volume, then split them.0 -
Gosh, with all this knowledge on how to run a business, you would think one of you, with all the input, should jump at this opportunity!! All I know, is that there is a lot of gum flapping on how one does this the right way. Throw in your hat, and get us the parts we all need!!0
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Seems like this topic should be on the agenda for the BoD and discussion at the regional and national meets this year. Maybe a logical point to start is by getting input on priority needs, maybe from Lew Bird and other specific registrars for the mix of cars.0
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First, these busineses have to be for sale. Full line has been sitting on a stack of parts, or at least the knowledge of their location for 12 years. There were offers to buy before. The answer was no sale. Same with Kgap, offers from good people to buy, not interested. Then Ken Amman sold to Bill and Charlies, what's with that? Of course Dave Kostansek last year. Only bright spot The Eshelmans. Then, the Het board does not want to "play ball" with folks like Steele or Metro rubber or Brassworks( who asked me how to buy a 1/4 page in the WTN 4 years ago) why should they care to service our members? Four things are necessary for a buyout or tranfer of a business. 1.Cash to buy 2. knowledge of the cars and the parts 3. an owner willing to sell for a reasonable price. 4. a new owner who will not NEED the business to make ends meet, ie, a HOBBIEST with perseverance and patience, and a sense of social responsibility + storage space for it all. I wish I had more Hudson knowledge and the space to store stock. HS does that answer why few stepped up to the plate?0
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"I don't know if you folks watch the NADA valuations, but the price of Hudsons are flat, but the cost of restoring one has gone up alot. In the last 4 years my Hornet has not gone up a dollar, while other models from GM & Ford have gone up about 10% in the last 18 months matching the stock market. I know this is a labor of love of our brand, but if we are to attract new,younger members to HET then availability of parts is essential. Go to cruise ins."
I promised myself that I would not get into this type of controversy on this forum and instead just try to post pretty pictures of my car, but I can't help being dragged in.
Ron is soooo right here. I DO watch the NADA valuations a bit and I KNOW what my car is worth, both to the market and to me. I feel a bit of a duty to show Amy that all that $$$ going out the door may not be all going down the pit.
I have several classic cars none more dear to me than my beloved Hudson and the T-plane, but these cars are really tough and expensive to keep in good shape. It's just hard to get parts! My other cars (Fords and a Vette) are deluged with catalogs and companies trying to sell parts and services. A vitual plethora of items to choose from. All you have to do is look at Hemmings and the other pubications to see where the car sales is going. As the parts and service section increases, so goes the sales of the cars.
I've tried to use this forum to voice concerns and give feedback about support companys in the past, but for some reason, if you are in any way critical even truthfully, someone gets offended. I'm not up on the Hudson parts/service politics.
Hopefully, one of you guys will set us relatively newcomers straight.
With all due respect, is the K-gap an old beloved Hudson family? Why does any criticism of them become attacked?...slim0 -
Michael
Do you have a sales catalog for your signs. I'm sorry the Hudson parts of your efforts didn't work out. Thanks for the effort. Good luck.
Have a good week.
Lee O'Dell0 -
RonS wrote:First, these busineses have to be for sale. Full line has been sitting on a stack of parts, or at least the knowledge of their location for 12 years. There were offers to buy before. The answer was no sale. Same with Kgap, offers from good people to buy, not interested. Then Ken Amman sold to Bill and Charlies, what's with that? Of course Dave Kostansek last year. Only bright spot The Eshelmans. Then, the Het board does not want to "play ball" with folks like Steele or Metro rubber or Brassworks( who asked me how to buy a 1/4 page in the WTN 4 years ago) why should they care to service our members? Four things are necessary for a buyout or tranfer of a business. 1.Cash to buy 2. knowledge of the cars and the parts 3. an owner willing to sell for a reasonable price. 4. a new owner who will not NEED the business to make ends meet, ie, a HOBBIEST with perseverance and patience, and a sense of social responsibility + storage space for it all. I wish I had more Hudson knowledge and the space to store stock. HS does that answer why few stepped up to the plate?
Ron-would you enlighten us on the "Play ball" situation? Seems to me like those companies would be a natural fit for rubber products-0 -
Thanks for the insights. I can see why a prior comment was that 'this has all been hashed over before'...
Sounds like a lost cause. Re-surfaced ideas and wishful thinking such as in my case will apparently not accomplish anything.0
This discussion has been closed.
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