1949 Hudson dies and will not restart
I am looking for advise on a very strange problem. My 1949 Hudson ( 8 cyl, 3sp w/OD ) was running great. Came to a stop sign and the car died. Tried to restart it and it cranked very slowly and would not restart. A good summaritan came over and offered a jump ( with a 12V vehicle ). The car started like springtime with a very quick spark jump from the other vehicle. It then ran great all the way home. I figured it was the good old 6V battery, but when I put the trickle charger on it, it showed the battery as fully charged. I tried to restart the car in the garage after getting it home and it started great. Tried it maybe four of five times and it started great each time. Now this is the 2nd time this has happened. It happened last week after the same length drive ( 25 miles in and 25 miles back ). The symptoms were exactly the same and the car restarted after a quick boost with 12Vs.
Now if it was the generator, the car should not run well after restarting. If it was the battery, then why would it re-charge after a short drive to the point where no additional re-charge was required from the battery charger.
Should I just replace the 6V Battery? Shoudl I pull the generator and get it tested? Is there something else that could cause this issue that might be intermittent?
This is a strange one and any inputs would be VERY WELCOME!
BST RGDS
GARY ( happychris )
Now if it was the generator, the car should not run well after restarting. If it was the battery, then why would it re-charge after a short drive to the point where no additional re-charge was required from the battery charger.
Should I just replace the 6V Battery? Shoudl I pull the generator and get it tested? Is there something else that could cause this issue that might be intermittent?
This is a strange one and any inputs would be VERY WELCOME!
BST RGDS
GARY ( happychris )
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Comments
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One immediate question: how good are the battery cable connections? If you haven't touched the cables for some time, try removing the negative (battery-to-starter) cable from the battery. Thoroughly clean the terminal and the clamp using one of those battery terminal cleaners. Then replace, and see if the problem repeats itself.
I assume you have the correct 6 volt cable on the car (should be about 5/8" to 3/4" diameter)?0 -
I have no answer for you, but...
I'm surprised that you decided to jump your 6V car from 12V.
Isn't that dangerous? In the sense that there's a pretty good probability of serious damage to not just the battery, but also the electricals and generator/alternator of both cars?
Also, I'd think there are consequences to jumping a positive-to-ground vehicle from a negative-to-ground. (as I assume might have been the case for you)0 -
Been Jumping 12 To 6 For 35 Years Never Hurt Anything. Use Pos To Pos And Neg To Neg And Pull Off Jumper Cables As Soon As It Fires. Soulnds Like Vapor Lock Or Low Compression, Bill Albright0
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I agree with Jon's suggestion to check all battery connections. I jump from 12 to 6 this way: Connect one jumper cable from 12v neg to the starter terminal (on the "starter side" of the solenoid). Connect the other cable to 12v pos, and find a place on the 6v car where you can touch the other end of that cable to ground. DON'T connect it to anything you don't want a burn mark on! Now, don't press the starter button on the 6v car, just touch that 12v pos cable firmly to ground, and thus spin the engine on 12v. If you don't energize the starter solenoid, the 12v and the 6v systems are never connected to each other ... you're just connecting the 12v to the starter.0
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Had the same problem years ago on my '42 Ford P/U. Turns out the battery posts and connectors just needed a good cleaning, then started every time.
Jay0 -
As mentioned check cable connections including ground at frame and engine . Is the fan belt tight? if it is slipping some and not charging enough the battery could run down after a 50 mile drive.
Is there anyone near that can check the charging system on the car to verify that it is operating properly. Also have the battery checked, could be something going bad inside the batery.
My 51 Pacemaker failed to start after going out for a burger one night. Jumped it with 12 volt and drove it home. Battery just died like that, imagine after almost 11 years on that Interstate battery. Also remember a 6volt car does not require a lot of electrical power to run for a while, not like todays cars with all the electronic stuff.
Hope this helps Good Luck.
Jim0 -
I have jumped 12 to 6 volt for years as Park does. Will add one thing. Be sure ign switch is on and car out of gear0
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THANKS!!! I will replace the battery cables 1st thing. That is the most logical explanation to how the battery would crank so slowly, and then be fully charged after a very short run home. I will take some test runs after the battery cables are replaced. If the problem still persists ( or maybe I will do this anyway ), will have the battery tested as well as the generator. Will also check the gronds at frame and enginer.
Bill A - I have a 6V diaphram type electric fuel pump by the gas tank pushing to the mechanical pump. The electric pump was on when the car stopped running. Would not the electric fuel pump have prevented vapor lock? How do you test for vapor lock? I also have purchased a rotary vane type 6V electric fuel pump ( I hear that they are much more reliable than the diaphram type ) but have yet to install it. Would the rotary vane pump be better at preventing vapor lock than the diaphram type? Also there is the symptom that the electric fuel pump kept running when I tried to restart the car, like it could not build up pressure in the line to the carb - is this some sort of clue that it might in fact have been a vapor lock issue?
p.s. - your mirrors I got from you look great on my car. Great product and great value!
BST RGDS
GARY ( happychris )0 -
Hello my 52 Hornet would run fine get, it warm and it would not start,replaced points wires plugs coil still had same problem.Battery checked out fine under load .Had starter rebuilt ,cabels cleaned,still same problem.Finally put in an optima 6 volt battery no more problem,also put a battery box cover to make small 6 volt optima look like oid tar top.Phill0
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My 54 Hornet Special would crank slowly and would not stat when warm. Jump with 12 volts and it would start every time. Battery checked good and was only about 6 months old. I changed cables and cleaned every connection I could find. Finally I bought an Interstate battery of the correct size and no more problems. The old battery was too small. the new battery not only has more cranking amps but it fits better in the battery tray.(larger) The only trouble since installing the new battery is a vapor lock, from sitting in bumper to bumper traffic, on the way to Pigeon Forge TN, 2 years ago. I now run a rubber line from the fuel pump to the fenderwell and an inline filter, then to the carb, and have never had anymore trouble with vaor lock.
Bob0 -
One reason for hard starting in so many Hudson six-volt cars -- and the reason (I suspect) that a lot of guys change over to 12-volt systems -- is that people may be using batteries that are not particularly powerful. The thing to look for is a battery's Cold Cranking Amp rating. You will find a wide variety of ratings here, between manufacturers. When you buy a cheaper battery, you are going to get fewer cold cranking amps. If a battery has barely enough oomph (a highly technical term) to turn your starter over, it isn't gonna have a whole lot left over to give you a good spark to ignite your engine.
For example, I own a DEKA 6-volt group 2 battery, which is rated at 780 CCA; I paid about $70 for this. The Optima gel-type batteries turn out an impressive 850 CCA; the last time I looked, they cost over $130, though.
You can get a Tractor Supply battery for as little as $30 but its rating is 625 CCA, and Delco's group 2 battery -- though more expensive -- only puts out 550 CCA.
The prices and CCA ratings I'm citing are over 4 years old and may have changed, but they illustrate my point: the cranking power of batteries can vary wildly.0 -
We used to put wooden clothes pins on the fuel line. :-)BJ__TN wrote:The only trouble since installing the new battery is a vapor lock, from sitting in bumper to bumper traffic, on the way to Pigeon Forge TN, 2 years ago. I now run a rubber line from the fuel pump to the fenderwell and an inline filter, then to the carb, and have never had anymore trouble with vaor lock.
Bob
Jay0 -
O.K. I might be VERY SLOW, but what does a wooden clothes pin on the fuel line do?Do you really leave the fuel line in the original position and clip wooden clothes pins to it? Wouldn't the wooden clothes pins be very close to the hot exhaust manifold and exhaust pipes? I can understand the recommendation to re-route the fuel line to the inner fender with rubber fuel line, as that would remove it from some of the heat, but wooden clothes pins???
The car that has the starting issues has a Interstate Battery with 720 CA, so I am already following one of the recommendations. I cleaned the battery cables and still had the issue. I will be replacing the cables and will also replace the battery as I am guessing that it might be starting to fail. One recommendation was to use the Optima Battery. Does anyone know where to purchase an Optima battery? Also Hudson 52 said he used a battery box to make the battery look correct. Anyone have a source of this item also?
BST RGDS
GARY ( happychris )0 -
Well, I'm sorry that my suggestion didn't solve the problem, but before we move on to something else I'd like to completely exhaust the 'cable'-related possibilities.
How about the ground (pos) cable? You've cleaned the clamp ends of both cables, I see. What about the end of the ground cable that attaches to the frame (or possibly, in your case, to the engine)? Have you checked that end and perhaps sanded it and the part (on the car) that it contacts, to guarantee a good connection.
And, do you have a secondary ground? One between the frame and the engine or transmission? You should, and those mating surfaces should be shiny as well.
The other end of the neg. cable leads to the starter solenoid. Has the connection at that end been checked as well?
The fact that the starter is barely cranking, leads me to still think this is an electrical problem having something to the battery connections.0 -
You should be able to get a 6 volt Optima battery at your Interstate battery distributor
a few years back I purchased one for a 53 Hornet coupe with 7X in it worked well . I paid about $90.00 dollars for it. A Intrstate 2XHD battery is the one I have recommended to fellow club members and they have had good results.
The clothes pins are supposed to act as a heat sink to absorb exess heat generated and draw it away from the gas line. Aluminum foil wrapped aroud has been used also.
I have also seen one Hudson where the owner cut a round hole in the panel next to the radiator and ducted air at the fuel line, sas it cured the problem. I have headers and a 4brl carb on mine and I have not had any vapor lock problems (stock fuel pump)
Jim0 -
Hi Chris,
Get the largest (in Cold Cranking Amps) group 2 battery you can find, per Jon B's suggestion. Often sellers will unknowingly substitute Group 1 batteries for the proper battery since the size difference is only a few inches. The proper battery will fit the tray.
Concerning the vapor lock, what I did (with a stock DA fuel pump) was substitute a 90 degree fitting at the pump outlet, and placed a new line coming out away from the engine and up. I placed an inline filter, and then a second new line with a gradual curve back to the carb. The line is much cooler being away from the exhaust manifold, and out by the fender. In your case, I'd try to move your line out towards the fenderwell.0 -
Had the same vapor-lock issue. Routed the line way out on the fender well. worked except on the hottest days. Then I "noticed" (meaning: pointed out to me at a show) that my heat sheilds were mounted backwards. That should make a difference this summer I think.0
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Hi,
I had same sort of deal going on in my 51. Turned out to be short inside battery. The battery showed charged, but was grounding itself while running not alowing it to take charge. Try new or at least another battery.
Paul0 -
Use a voltmeter to measure voltage at the battery posts while cranking. Then check the voltage at the starter while cranking. You shouldn't be losing more than about 1 volt through the cables and connections. Be sure you have no stainless steel bolts or washers in the circuit, such as bolting the ground cable to the frame. And when you replace the cables, be sure to get good, heavy cables for a 6v vehicle, not ones for a 12v car, which are much too small diameter.0
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Latest Update - ordered a Optima Battery with big CCA rating. Went to replace the battery cables. Auto Parts Store said they don't make them anymore and sold be Double 0 Welding Cable along with the terminals and clamps to make my own custom cables. I later found that NAPA can order the required cable lengths in Double 0 Gauge Battery Cable already made up, along with the original style braided flat cables in the required length. The battery cables are strangly configured. The cable to the starter is quite normal. The positive braided cable goes from the + on the battery to the battery box ( chassis ground? ), then a separate flat braided cable goes from the battery box to the motor mount bolt ( engine ground? ). This configuration seemed a little strange, but the cables and the configuration look original. Anyone have any input on this? Ordered these parts - should be in tomorrow. Will be sure I grind down the areas where the replacement cables will connect and also be sure not to use stainless steel hardware ( thanks for that input, I might have made a mistake if not warned ). Once the new Optima Battery and new cables are installed, I will check the voltage while cranking per your suggestion. After I test these changes, I will look at re-routing the fuel line to the inner fender. Again, thanks for all these inputs. I know it seems I am using the "shot gun" approach, but replacement of the battery cables and also the battery seem to be a "no brainer".
BST RGDS
GARY ( happychris )0 -
hi, with the vapour lock if its to do with heat coulndnt you put some header tape around fuel line as they use this to keep heat in headers instead of letting it escape into the engine bay,wouldnt work the opposite way around ?0
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It's a little late now, but for future reference be aware that Dave Kostansek stocks the correct battery cables in various lengths. Sounds like you found what you need, anyway. Even if your current problem proves to be caused by some other source, a decent set of battery cables and good, shiny connections were a good investment of your money and time.
And yes, the correct configuration is to ground both the frame and the engine. Some folks have the ground strap from battery to frame, and from that point to the engine (as yours does), while others run the strap directly to the engine, then ground the engine or transmission to the frame elsewhere. Remember, the engine sits on rubber mounts!0 -
I believe that "cable to battery tray mount, cable from there to front engine mount plate tab," is the original factory configuration.0
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Park is right on the money as far as the grounding is concerned. The Battery Tray Mount is welded to the Hudson Frame which is the Ground for your Hudson. The jumper strap to the engine mount is the connection point between the frame of the car and the front engine mount. Connecting the braided cables between the battery, battery box transition stud and the front motor mount, with clean connection assures a low resistance path to ground which allows for maximum transfer of current to your starter and electrical system.Park W wrote:I believe that "cable to battery tray mount, cable from there to front engine mount plate tab," is the original factory configuration.
Good Luck0 -
There is also a braided cable at rear of engine. Rigrt lower bell houseing bolt to crossmember.0
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This is all good advise, but when trying to fix an electrical problem like this you should go from the battery ground strap all the way through the charging and starting systems complete. Take all this good advise, make a check list and don't forget the basics. If you have the battery checked be sure they put it under a load. For good starting you need at least 500CCA to start a hot engine (that's why the Optima work so well) and if you have the generator checked also take the regulator in at the same time so they can checked of output together.0
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One thing that is often overlooked is the starter solenoid. I just replaced mine with a new one and the car starts much quicker. Apparently the connections inside were not up to snuff (another tech term). But it looked fine on the outside.0
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A couple of most recent posts above have pointed out what I didn't earlier ... checking the difference between voltage at the battery posts and that at the starter is just the first step, to determine if there is indeed an excessive voltage loss somewhere. If the test shows there is, then you have to work your way through every connection (including that "temporary connection" across the solenoid contacts), and every length of cable, to identify where the loss is taking place. Don't assume anything about any connection. For example, I've found major loss at a good looking terminal at one end of a battery cable, caused by major but hidden corrosion where the cable "plugged into" the terminal.0
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Installed the new battery cables today ( new Double 0 cable from battery negative to starter solenoid, new braided cable from battery negative to battery box frame, and a new braided cable from battery box frame to motor mount bolt ). Also installed the new Optima Battery today. The car cranks faster than it ever did and fires up immediately. Took it for a road trip and it ran great and did not die. Stopped numerous times, and it cranked quickly and fired right up. More road trips are required before I call this one 100% resolved, but it sure looks good.
I appreciate the input on the additional ground strap from the rear of the engine to the frame. Will check that one tomorrow.
1950 Hudson Special mentioned about a battery box to make the Optima Battery look more like an original battery - anyone have any inputs on where something like this could be obtained? The Optima works great, but sure is skinny in width and seems lost on the original battery tray.
I would like to express my appreciation for the volume and quality of the replies. The suggestions have been excellent. THANKS!!!!!
BST RGDS
GARY ( happychris )0
This discussion has been closed.
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