Spicer axles with big engines
Comments
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Ruth&Jerry
Hi - here's the link you were trying to post...
http://www.teufert.net/other/rear%20end%20dimensions.htm0 -
I'm going to reprint part of an article I just read. Pay attention to the ending of the quote and tell me what rear differential they intend on using?
Quote:
The original team of motorheads -- including the legendary Martyn Schorr (whose gearhead-savvy PR firm Performance Media helped spread the Good Word back in the day) and Motion Performance founder Joel Rosen -- have partnered with entrepreneurs Joel Ehrenpreis and Larry Jaworske to jump-start Motion Performance, newly incarnated as Motion Performance, LLC.
The reformed company will be launching a line of Motion-branded high-performance products -- including speed equipment for late model GM vehicles. But the really big news is the recent debut of the retro-ripper Baldwin-Motion Camaro SuperCoupe, which made its first public appearance at the annual Specialty Equipment Manufacturer Association (SEMA) show in Las Vegas.
Twelve of these automotive assassins will be built for starters (with more possible, if demand warrants). And they will time-trip their lucky owners back to 1969 -- in the form of updated and retrofitted "coach-built" '69 Camaro shells (original cowl, roof and rocker panels; even a 1969 Camaro VIN/registration) stuffed with gleefully overkill 540 cube (that's 8.8 liters, baby) Merlin/Motion all-alloy Chevy big blocks generating about 700 net horsepower. (Point of order: That's 700 real horsepower, as measured by today's more honest "net" hp ratings methodology -- an engine installed in the car, with accessories and exhaust. This is probably a solid 100-150 hp more than the 425-500 horse 427s and 454s used in the original Motion cars, which were rated under the old -- and much less honest -- "gross" ratings, done on a dyno -- without power-sapping production exhaust or accessories.)
These engines -- which are set back in the much-modified 1969 chassis approximately 13 inches from the stock position to improve the car's weight balance -- feature World Products aluminum blocks with Eagle 6.535-inch H-beam rods, forged cranks, a roller cam and 10:1 compression pistons. The whole works is topped by Kinsler cross-ram fuel injection and a pair of polished Motion-badged new old stock (NOS) valve covers.
A specially prepped Tremec 5-speed manual transmission designed to withstand the incredible torque and horsepower feeds a Dana 44 axle with hardened steel, high-torque axles. Baer Claw Extreme Plus brakes -- featuring 14-inch cross-drilled rotors at all four corners and six-piston calipers ride inside custom Bonspeed lightweight alloy rims. The hand-fitted interior features leather sport buckets, hand-formed dash with custom signature gauges and, of course, air conditioning.
End Quote.
the Dana 44, same differential used in late '52-'55. The differential isn't the weak link in that rear end as employed by Hudson, its the axles. If a different axle can be used with a trapped bearing in lieu of the tapered bearing, that rear end is evidently capable of handling 700hp as determined by some pretty savvy builders.
The Hudson/Spicer, I really can't comment on. However, the later 44's - plenty of differential to handle you engine swappers. But you'll have to concoct a different axle arrangement.
Mark0 -
My dad had a '53 Twin H Hornet with Hydromatic and a differential out of an overdrive Hudson. Super fast in the eighth mile, but carried an extra axle in the trunk for road side fixes.0
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The Studebaker guys recently developed a kit using Moser flanged axles to replace the tapered axles used in the Dana 44. Nice kit, you might try contacting:
http://fairbornstudebaker.com/
to see if they would work or could be made to work for the Hudson version.
They run $495 for the whole setup.0 -
`Hudsonator wrote:
the Dana 44, same differential used in late '52-'55. The differential isn't the weak link in that rear end as employed by Hudson, its the axles. If a different axle can be used with a trapped bearing in lieu of the tapered bearing, that rear end is evidently capable of handling 700hp as determined by some pretty savvy builders.
The Hudson/Spicer, I really can't comment on. However, the later 44's - plenty of differential to handle you engine swappers. But you'll have to concoct a different axle arrangement.
Mark
Mark, are you saying all late 52-55 Huds had this same Dana 44? Would any of them work in my 50 Pacemaker? I'm going to check out that axle conversion website you cited. An interesting concept.
Jay0 -
jsrail, I did make a typo. That should have been late 52 - 54, not 55. I don't know anything about 55 rearends.
But, yes - it is the same Dana 44 differential. The same differential that you can buy literally any gearset, locker, whatever for. Also, it is a bolt in for your Pacemaker. As long as it came from another stepdown, its just a matter of unbolting the Spicer, bolting up the Dana. That is the reason I have been a Dana fan. No need for Ford 9" rear ends at megabuck prices, just update a Dana and bolt it in. That's what my '49 is going to get.
50C8DAN - thank you, thank you, thank you!!! That was the last piece of the puzzle for me. I don't know if the axles are the same length, but it doesn't matter. The combination of parts that trap the axle bearing and/or hold the axle in place was the needed fix. I'm sure they were having to have axles made. So, updated rear end capable of handling 700hp. About $500.00
Hud0 -
I've got an e-mail out there to the Stude folks requesting more information on the cross compatibility of the Stude kit.
I really haven't tackled this issue beyond some initial observations and deciding what direction I was going to persue when that part of the project came up. I knew the Dana 44 was flexible and that it seemed possible to do whatever given the bearing arrangement and looking at some modern 44's.
Here are some other issues that are likely to pop up if you change more than the axles.
1.) Axle spline count & diameter. If you plan to change carriers, for example I want to run a Tru-Trac unit, the spline count is 30 for the Dana. I haven't looked at the Hudson, but I know its alot less and coarser than 30. This may be a positive, due to the custom axle mfgs being geared up for the later model 30 spline axles. We'll see. I'm hoping that 30 spline axles are cheaper than the original.
2.) The pinion spline. I think Park Waldrop has been here and done this. I have a link to the pinion supplier that he mentioned earlier after installing a gearset. He didn't mention a problem with the pinion nor using the Hudson yoke. This doesn't mean that variants don't exist, I simply haven't researched it enough to know for sure - perhaps Park has.
The reason I'm not fully involved in my rear end yet is I'm keeping focused on the 308/355 CID engine right now. I do hope to get it dyoned and that will ultimately determine my choice of gears. I am going to have to say, the Dana keeps looking better all the time and the intial decision to stick with it doesn't appear to be a disappointing prospect.
Hud0 -
Thanks Mark for all the info. Let me know how you progress. My budget may be limited so this seems to be a viable option if we can upgrade those axles without a length problem.
Jay0 -
The Studebaker kit is a real nice setup, includes all the parts you need for the swap including bearings etc. Only thing you need to do is open up the backing plate about 1/16" and put in the shims as needed. They really did their homework. I have seen the axles and they are really beefy. I plan to put a set in my '64 Hawk this spring. It really makes the rear brake job a piece of cake, no need for the old hub puller.0
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This is very interesting as I have a 54 hornet parts car. If I understand correctly I can bolt the 54 rear end into my 49 and upgrade the axles somehow? The gear ratio I'm not sure of but the 54 has the 308 with twin H and the borg warner automatic tranny. The 49 is getting a 400 small block with a turbo 400 tranny. Any suggestions as far as gear ratios?0
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jimalberta, your ratio is 3:07, "originally".0
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50C8DAN wrote:The Studebaker kit is a real nice setup, includes all the parts you need for the swap including bearings etc. Only thing you need to do is open up the backing plate about 1/16" and put in the shims as needed. They really did their homework. I have seen the axles and they are really beefy. I plan to put a set in my '64 Hawk this spring. It really makes the rear brake job a piece of cake, no need for the old hub puller.
Once again, I appreciate you sharing this information. From the looks of what I see on the website, Its close what I thought it may require for the Hudson Dana 44. The axles are Moser, I believe. Moser makes any kind of axle for any application. The price is $320.oo a set. What I was looking at was so called "C-clip" eliminators. Basicly, a trapped bearing arrangement to alleviate the c-clips inside your spider gears. Hudson's doesn't have c-clips due to trapping of the bearing in the axle housing and seal retainer. The c-clip eliminator does basicly the same thing, but with modern straight bearings rather than the tapered bearings of the Hudson axle.
Mind you, the bearing issue for the later Dana rear end isn't the problem here in terms of Hudson. They are straight inner bore/ tapered bearings, whereas the Spicer axle used a tapered inner bore/tapered bearing. I was simply going to try and design (with the help of a custom axle maker) a flanged axle to use the existing Hudson/Dana tapered bearings or adapt it to use a more modern straight bearing. It really depended on what axle diameter I needed once I found out the hp/torque output of my engine. The problem as I saw it was that the original bearing was held in place by a machined shoulder on the axle, then trapped by the outer seal retainer that set the depth of the cup via the shim-pack. This trapped the axle and wouldn't allow any more lateral movement than the cup allowed, factory spec is .001-.004" endplay.
The problem in adapting a modern one piece flanged axle is positive bearing location. Obviously, you cant have a shoulder machined inboard of the flange, or you can't install a bearing. If you install the bearing from the carrier side, there is nothing to keep it from walking right out of the bearing - hence the c-clip. What I had in mind was a custom axle, with a groove machined into the axle for a quad ring type locator. This would allow a person to drive a bearing on from the carrier side, then drift it back against the quad ring. The outboard side of the bearing could then be trapped and adjusted as normal with the shims and cup (or no cup at all if you opted to use a straight bearing).
I'm kinda curious as to why the Stude people opted for the c-clip elimination type bearing retainer rather than original retainer sans the tapered bearing and associated cup. I'm not entirely familiar with how they accomplish the "c-clip" elimination unless its along the lines of the previous paragraph. The original bearing retainer seems to be of plenty enough diameter internally to accomodate a suitable straight axle bearing. That's why I sent the e-mail, they may have encountered something that I am not aware of and went with the new bearing retainer altogether.
Like I've said before, I'm not that far into my project. However, that is the total of thought I have given to it and was the basis of sticking with the Dana in the first place. I'm eager to find out more about the Stude package and what they encountered and fixed. You can bet I'll let the Hudson board know what I found out.
Hud0 -
Thanks much Hud, I'm sure I won't be the only one watching your progress. :-)
Jay0 -
Hud:
I think you have the process down pretty well. Ted Harbit, who still drag races Studebakers and just turned 70 headed up this project, and the desire was to replace the old flanged axles due to their age in years and miles. The flanged axles were used on the R3 '63/'64 Avantis and '65/'66 Canadian Lark based Studebakers that used the Dana 44 rears. Here is a summary of the info available:
Jan 2005
FLANGED AXLES FOR SALE--TO REPLACE THE TAPERED AXLES IN DANA 44 REAR
ENDS--THESE FLANGED AXLES ARE SIMILAR TO THE ONES IN THE CHICKEN HAWK
These axles are stronger than the tapered ones and the brake drums are easily
removed for maintenance.
Listed below are items included in the price:
1. Custom alloy axles with new studs
2. New outer seals
3. Custom Retainers
4. New bearings
5. New inner seals (A larger inside diameter to accommodate the larger axle)
6. A ring to locate the brake drum on the axle
(These components are pressed on the axle when you receive them)
7. Complete instructions with pictures are included with each set
Total cost is $495 (plus shipping)
If you would like to order a set or have any questions,
Contact Ted Harbit (765-948-5051)
Phil Harris (937-878-7712)
Malcolm Berry (937-434-8494) If you have our email addresses,
feel free to use those also.
CHANGES THAT NEED TO BE MADE TO INSTALL THESE AXLES
1. The center hole in the backing plate needs to be enlarged to 2 3/4" to go
over the bearing.
2. You need to remove the brake drums from the hubs by carefully pressing
out the studs. CAUTION***The brake drums can be easily bent if not pressed off
properly.
3. The brake drums may need to be turned if you notice a braking vibration.
With the new axles, the brake drums are easily removed.
4. The installation is about the same as a stock axle.
5. If you have twin traction, you must MAKE SURE that the thrust blocks are
in place just as you do when replacing the stock tapered axles.
6. You need to set the axle end play as described in the Studebaker Shop
Manuel. NOTE***A section can be cut from the middle of the bottom part of the
shim making it possible to change the shim without pulling the axle.
7. This would be a good opportunity to install a grease fitting in the axle
housing to grease the rear axle bearings like the early housings.
8. If you don't install the grease fitting, you will need to pack the rear
axle bearings before the axle is installed.
9. You will use the included ring to center the brake drum on the axle
before reinstalling the wheel. Be sure the spacer and drum stay on the axle as you
mount the wheel.0 -
I just got an e-mail back from Phillip Harris from the supplier of the Stude axles. In it he stated that they wanted to do a conversion for the Hudson and others using the Dana axle. An offer was made to assist them in setting up something for the Hudson, and I've committed to do that with them. So, this is going to happen it seems.
So much for staying focused on my engine huh?
Hud0 -
Very much appreciated Hud, so I guess now I just need to find a Hud Dana rear end. I would like to use a limited slip, so I guess I won't need a carrier?
Jay0 -
Phil is a good guy, he has a excellent reputation with the Stude folks and if he commits to this project I would expect it to be a good job and fairly priced.0
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I am in touch with Ted Harbit, Fairborn Studebaker, and he would like someone to send a HUDSON STEPDOWN Dana 44 axle so he can do a physical comparison against the Studebaker axles (Stude Dana 44); address as follows in case of a volunteer, perhaps from the Fairborn, OH area????
Fairborn Studebaker
Phil and Madelyn Harris
4300 St. Rt. 235
Fairborn, OH 45324
(937) 878-1576
Thanks for your participation.0 -
Has anyone been able to send a rear end yet? I'm looking into this option, but don't want to buy a rear end until I know they can make the conversion work. I would volunteer, but I don't have a Dana 44 and I live in AZ.54 HSWH wrote:I am in touch with Ted Harbit, Fairborn Studebaker, and he would like someone to send a HUDSON STEPDOWN Dana 44 axle so he can do a physical comparison against the Studebaker axles (Stude Dana 44); address as follows in case of a volunteer, perhaps from the Fairborn, OH area????
Fairborn Studebaker
Phil and Madelyn Harris
4300 St. Rt. 235
Fairborn, OH 45324
(937) 878-1576
Thanks for your participation.
Jay0 -
I am going to see the Fairborne Studebaker guys this next weekend at York PA. In fact I will be picking up a new set of Dana 44 Axles for my '64 Hawk. From what I hear no one has been in touch lately with the guys for the Hudson axles. Has anyone got something they would like for me to pass along?0
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I need to notify someone by the end of the month if I want to buy a Hudson Dana 44 rear end, but I don't want to buy one if no one is making axle conversions for them.
Jay0 -
I believe Phil Harris and Ted Harbit are willing to make the axles if there is 1) enough interest, ie. people willing to buy, 2) someone will send an axle for measurement and spline count, etc.0
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50C8DAN, I'm guilty of being sidetracked from the axle situation. I had sent Phil Harris the diagrams from both the parts book and the mechanical procedure book to compare it to the Stude rear end. He said that they were enough alike for the bearing retainer to work for both rear ends. The only matter left was to double check the axle length and the backing retainer/backing plate stack.
That's where it got left. February has been a blur for me with work, I haven't even worked on my own engine enough to suit.
All Phil needs is an axle with bearing, backing/brake plate, and a drumless rear hub. If you have those things out and will take them to Phil next weekend - that's great. If not, I'll try to get fired back up this week and get the deed done myself.
Mark0 -
Mark, unfortunately I do not have those items. My 50C8 is all together and will stay that way for a while, I hope anyway. However, I would be glad to take them with me when I see Phil if you or anyone else wants to get them to me in MD.0
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I have two Dana rear ends out of vehicles and moved them into the much crowded workspace on Saturday. I'll get those axles whipped out and the pieces Phil needs sometime this week. It would be just as cheap to ship them from here directly to Phil as it would relaying them through you. I appreciate the offer, but I think that's best.
For the record, If I have a set of custom axles made with the beefier and more common bearing retainers - they won't be the same spline count as the orginals. The reason being, your modern differential carriers for the Dana rear end are 30 spline rather than the older 19 spline as found in the Hudson/Dana rear end. Just so everybody understands, if this upgrade comes to pass - and you intend on using your original differential and just want the axles -> the spline count will be 19, not 30.
Sorry for the delays, this just simply isn't at the head of my list. I stand to make no money whatsoever by doing this, in fact its going cost me. I will get it done eventually because its something I need for my own car and that's my only interest.
I'm pretty confident this will become a reality, so let's just be patient.
Mark0 -
Mark,
Are you saying that we won't be able to use a modern carrier and axles, just newer axles? I guess that wouldn't work for me as I'm not sure the original carrier is up to V8 horsepower. Or, are you saying that they can make new axles with the larger spline count if you use a modern carrier?
Jay0 -
Currently on my Hudson I am not planning any changes. I am just offering to help if I can. I have not talked to Phil directly and have only corresponded with Ted Harbit who I know from Studebaker racing activities. FYI I believe the Studebaker axles are also 19 spline count versions. I am not aware that there is any strength problem with the earlier carriers. I had an early Dana 60 with 19 spline count and it was fine.0
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jsrail wrote:Mark,
Are you saying that we won't be able to use a modern carrier and axles, just newer axles? I guess that wouldn't work for me as I'm not sure the original carrier is up to V8 horsepower. Or, are you saying that they can make new axles with the larger spline count if you use a modern carrier?
Jay
Jay,
I'm not saying the 19 spline carriers are not up to the task. In fact, Phil Harris of the Studebaker conversion developed this axle conversion to pound the heck out of these rear ends in the Studes. Some later Studes actually had small block chevy engines, so I feel in a full on drag race situation - they have been tested. Some Studes had posi-traction units that were 19 spline. If you want to run your Hudson carrier and just upgrade the axles, I'm sure that is going to be fine.
I intend to change carriers, which will necessitate a 30 spline axle. From what I can gather from Phil, you can specify the axle spline count as each axle kit is custom made by Moser. Which means if a Hudson axle upgrade kit becomes a reality, they will be 19 spline standard. The 30 spline will be a other than the norm. However, if you go with a Detroit Locker or any modern carrier - they will be 30 spline, but will fit in the same differential housing as the Hudson/Dana.
Now if you can find a Stude differential with their posi-traction unit, you can have a posi 19 spline axle differential Dana 44 in your Hudson.
One more thing I've noticed in the parts manuals. The Jets also ran Dana 44 rear differentials. The only difference as far as parts numbers is for the axles (shorter) and a Severe usage yoke part # for the Jet. The rest of the parts as far as differentials go - the same. If you look at the Jet's rear ratios, there is some flexibility as far as rear gearing goes. You can't use the entire rear housing, but you can evidently use the carrier and ring/pinion.
Mark Hudson0 -
An update on this situation.
The Fairborn Studebaker - Hudson Dana axle conversion, is on the move. Phil has had all the pieces he needed for about a month now and e-mail conversations floating back and forth between. He has also been in cahoots with a Hudnut nearer to him.
The revision being considered is a matter of the outer seal retainer. This will likely be incorporated into the new bearing retainer. This project is on the move, and in capable hands who are working on it as they can, namely Philip Harris of Fairborn Studebaker.
Mark0 -
Your help is much appreciated Mark! I for one am looking forward to tis development. If I go this route, I'm sure I will go with the 30 spline set up as well.
Jay0
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