Spicer axles with big engines
Anyone aware of any history of the '52-'54 (Spicer/Dana) rear axles failing when used with large V8s and automatic transmission? Or, put another way: assuming the desired gear ratio is available in this axle, is there really any reason to replace it when going to big V8 and auto transmission?
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Ok Park, Fess up.. Whatcha up to?
Dave W.0 -
li DONT THINK THERE LWOULD BE ANY PROBLEM, UNLESS LYOU ARE BUILDING AN OUT AND OUT DRAG RACER. BILL ALBRIGHT0
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Historically all the Jeep guys that built Jeeps from the early 50's to the 60's replaced the Dana 44s as soon as possible. Hudson's is based on the Dana 44 and probably would not take the torque and horsepower of a big block V8, even through an automatic transmission. The only time I built a Hudson with a big block 460 Ford, we replaced the rear axle assembly with a shortened Ford 9", just because we didn't want to deal with broken Dana 44 parts out in PoDunkLand...If you know what I mean.0
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As I recall one of the weak points in step-down Hudsons used in stock car racing was the rear axle. The fix was to use a turned down Caddy axle. Usually it was the right side axle that went - and that would put the car right over the fence.
Hudsontech0 -
Thanks for the remarks so far, gang. What am I up to? Advising a local fellow who's going to rod a stepdown coupe. Some of the comments above wouldn't apply to a typical street-rodded stepdown of today, exposed to typical driving patterns. Anyone know first hand of a failure under these conditions? (hypothesis: a lot of the axle changeouts folks are doing are unnecessary overkill). I can't see going to the expense and hassle of changing out to a Ford 9" or whatever if the original Spicer/Dana 44 seems to hold up OK. And even if there is some documented failure history, it might still make sense to run the Dana 44 and see what happens, then replace it if it fails.0
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I broke a hotchkiss axle with my DeSoto Hemi. It didn't take long to do either. I have a dana 44 in it right now and it seems to be holding up fine. it does have a 8.5" ring gear which is usually a good indicator for strength.
Right now I have major traction issues and am looking into getting some sort of positraction device for it. I need to take off the rear cover and see what splines the axles are though. Most likely 19 splines. I'll let you guys know what I find out, or maybe someone out there knows how many splines the axles have on them.
I have a ford 9" housing available to use, but I'd also rather not go through the hassle of making it fit, if the dana 44 will hold up to my driving style. (19 years old)
One interesting tidbit - The woodruff keys were not the broken part on my old axle, it was something in the third member.0 -
I like the Dana 44 (not the earlier Spicer), and is pretty much up to withstanding the torque required to propel most cars in the 3000-3750# range. The exception would be some hp applied in the 550+ range and under some extreme usage (I was 19 yrs old once and tested this regularly!). The reason for most 44 failures in the off-roading world is due to axle housing flexure and the associted stresses that causes in the differential, not the application of force on pavement. If the same Dana 44 rear end was good for Mopar's hossiest muscle cars - that should say something about it.
I'm investigating upgrades for the Hudson Dana 44, and like "hudson" above - interested in a positraction unit for it that would behave on the highway, yet lock up in a straight line. The past experiances with lockers I've had is a compromise in one area or another. If it locks up drag racing, it will scoot you around the twisties. If it eases you around the curves, you're also slipping internal clutch plates that wear out - and I don't like differential work all that much!
I'm looking at the Detroit Tru-Trac locker - and kinda like what I see. It is a 'limited slip' outfit that uses helical gears to sense the torque load on each wheel. I like the concept and think it would be a road mannerly option that wouldn't require additional "clutch wear".
Mark Hudson0 -
By the way, I recommend Reider Racing as a source for "non-Hudson" gear ratios for the Hudson Spicer/Dana 44. Just got a 3.73 ring and pinion from them, with installation kit. Genuine Dana gears, not questionable "cheapo's," and everything went together very nicely. Required a different u-joint trunnion, with more splines, but Reider had that at a very reasonable price, too. www.reiderracing.com.0
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Park W:
I was just on their website last night, looking at Dana 44 parts. Looks like a lot of good stuff there. Do you know what spline our axles are?
Hudsonator:
For the diff that works in a straight line and on the highway. A Zexel-Torsen would be the ideal setup. They came stock on some late model Camaros. I believe that it is the same design as the Detroit Tru-Trac.0 -
hudson wrote:... Do you know what spline our axles are? ...
I'd like to know too.
Reider Racing shows a 19 spline and a 30 spline option for the Detroit Locker, but the Detroit True-Trac is only offered in a 30 spline application. I think that I would prefer the True-Trac over the Locker.0 -
Iam putting in a rear end from a 1976 pontiac valrie also putting in the front end sway bar front end. For the rear end it has possie trac so iam thinking its a dana locker but iam not sure need to get it sand blasted and look up the #'s on it.0
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So, do you guys think I can use a Hudson Dana 44 under my '50 Pacemaker if I'm running a 300hp vette LT1 w/ auto tranny? Will one of these later ones fit under a '50? I'm also wondering about a rear end I don't have to narrow.
Jay0 -
1957, 58, and 59 Fords have rearends that are 57 3/4 inches wide. These are 9" rears, with many many ratios available, and your Hudson wheels will bolt right up, as will the E brake cables. I have these in three of my pre stepdown cars. They are a litte too narrow, and require a one inch spacer behind the wheel to get everything to fit. The stepdowns are narrower, and these rears shound be perfect
Dany Spring0 -
Has anyone used the Chrysler 8 3/4" up to 1976? I read they are 55.6" wide and as strong, if not stronger, than a Ford 9". And they use the same 5 x 4.5" bolt pattern.
Jay0 -
jsrail wrote:So, do you guys think I can use a Hudson Dana 44 under my '50 Pacemaker if I'm running a 300hp vette LT1 w/ auto tranny? Will one of these later ones fit under a '50? I'm also wondering about a rear end I don't have to narrow.
Jay
Studebaker used a Dana 44 (with and without Posi) from ’56 thru ’64 in applications up to 300 HP in the case of the supercharged 289 Avanti & Hawk. Failures are very rare, and usually due to lack of maintenance rather than a weakness in the part. The axles housings from the R1 and R2 “package†cars also have the tabs welded on for the factory traction bars. Might be an alternative for a Hudson if the width is right. I can measure one in an R2 Avanti if interested. They also have the same wheel bolt pattern as Ford.
Best,
John0 -
Packard8 wrote:Studebaker used a Dana 44 (with and without Posi) from ’56 thru ’64 in applications up to 300 HP in the case of the supercharged 289 Avanti & Hawk. Failures are very rare, and usually due to lack of maintenance rather than a weakness in the part. The axles housings from the R1 and R2 “package†cars also have the tabs welded on for the factory traction bars. Might be an alternative for a Hudson if the width is right. I can measure one in an R2 Avanti if interested. They also have the same wheel bolt pattern as Ford.
Best,
John
Thanks John, measurements would be great. How difficult are they to come by?
Jay0 -
Hi Jay,
These are “rough†measurements taken lying under the cars…..
The Dana 44 in the Avanti measures about 53†between the brake backing plates, and 58†from center to center of the rear tires (but it has Borrani T-42 wire wheels and big tires, so probably an inch or two less with stock wheels & tires). The ’49 Hudson measures 56†from center to center of the rear tires. Visually, it looks like an easy swap, even the traction bars look like they would match up with the Hudson frame. I’m not sure how available the rear ends are these days….might try posting on some of the Stude chats. The Twin-Traction (Posi) units with the traction bar brackets are the rarest, as they were only used on the R1 and R2 Hawks, Larks and Avantis ordered with the performance “package†(disc brakes, HD suspension etc). The later cars (‘62-’64?) also have pretty big finned brake drums too.
John0 -
how wide is a hudson stepdown rearend?0
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jsrail wrote:So, do you guys think I can use a Hudson Dana 44 under my '50 Pacemaker if I'm running a 300hp vette LT1 w/ auto tranny? Will one of these later ones fit under a '50? I'm also wondering about a rear end I don't have to narrow.
Jay
I ran a Dana 44 in my old '78 Cherokee full time 4x4. I had a built up 401 in it with oversize tires. I took that thing in some places that man was never intended to go in a vehicle and it never broke. I don't think that you will have any problems with a REBUILT rearend. I would replace all bolts,etc. NEVER trust 55 year old bolts!0 -
Seriously folks. What splines are the axles in the Dana/Spicer rearends?0
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Here is what we have found in changing rearends. We ran an 8&3/4 mopar rear in my dads car (49 Com) before he tubbed it. It was 55&1/4 inches wide hub face to hub face. It allowed us to run a 29"x9" slick on an 8" wheel, using stock springs. This rear was custom built and about 2 inches narrower than a stock A body rear. I beleave we had determined that a stock A body rear would work with a narrower wheel and tire combo. I hope this helps. BTW that rear is for sale (on Ebay) if any of your are as nutty as we are, I doubt anyone here needs that much rearend but its out there.0
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harcoequip wrote:Here is what we have found in changing rearends. We ran an 8&3/4 mopar rear in my dads car (49 Com) before he tubbed it. It was 55&1/4 inches wide hub face to hub face. It allowed us to run a 29"x9" slick on an 8" wheel, using stock springs. This rear was custom built and about 2 inches narrower than a stock A body rear. I beleave we had determined that a stock A body rear would work with a narrower wheel and tire combo. I hope this helps. BTW that rear is for sale (on Ebay) if any of your are as nutty as we are, I doubt anyone here needs that much rearend but its out there.
I'd be curious to know what slick you guys used and what backspacing you used on those 8" wheels.
I'd like to have some traction in my coupe.0 -
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jsrail wrote:I can't get it to come up.
Jay
Hi Jay,
try Viagra LOL
But seriously ..... I found the link through www.clubhotrod.com
Once on this website click on Forums then Shop Talk, scroll to a thread started by 'de king' titled '9 inch Ford Rearend' then scroll down to a reply from Bob Parmenter and the link is within Bob's reply.
I like the Club Hotrod site, have you been on it before, if so what do you think?
Jerry0 -
Ruth&Jerry wrote:Hi Jay,
try Viagra LOL
But seriously ..... I found the link through www.clubhotrod.com
Once on this website click on Forums then Shop Talk, scroll to a thread started by 'de king' titled '9 inch Ford Rearend' then scroll down to a reply from Bob Parmenter and the link is within Bob's reply.
I like the Club Hotrod site, have you been on it before, if so what do you think?
Jerry
That's my wife's complaint! :-)
Found the link and its a good one with both inside and wms measurements. I marked it as a favorite and will be referring back to it again and again I'm sure. Thanks again Jerry.
Jay0 -
Interesting thread. I am pondering the same thing. I'm putting a chevy small block 400 with an automatic tranny in my 49 coupe and was wondering if the stock rear end and axles will be a problem..any advice?0
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Jim, everything folks have told me here is basically that if you never get your foot into it, you can keep the stock rear end; but if you're going to punch it, even once in awhile, the recommendation is change to a later rear end. Now, if only I could sell some stuff off mine, I'd have some money for my rear end. :-)
Jay0 -
well ya gotta smoke the tires every so often so I guess I'll be putting a different rear end in.0
This discussion has been closed.
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