12 volt field coils

SuperDave

Does anyone have a part number for the proper field coils to convert a 49 starter to 12 volts? I have done a search here, but couldn't find a number. Lots of discussion, but maybe I missed the part number somewhere.:)

RL Chilton

I like using Napa Echlin IC14. It has an internal resistor and is the same diameter as the original 6 volt.

Sorry, Dave. I mis-read your post. No, sorry, I always have the shop re-wind the starters for me.

SuperDave

RL Chilton wrote:

I like using Napa Echlin IC14. It has an internal resistor and is the same diameter as the original 6 volt.

Have another cup of coffee Russell.. I don't want a ignition coil. I'm looking for STARTER field coils. It's still early in Texas... LOL:D

Park_W

Russell, who is it you've used to rewind the starter field coils? I've been searching for one to recemmend to folks ever since the one on my Tech Notes pages went defunct. I need to know of one that's still funct!

hudsonguy

Super,



I've heard that any Chrysler 12V starter will work.



Also, you can try Ace Auto Electric P/N ST-49.



Keep us posted on what you find.

[Deleted User]

For you folks near San Antonio I would suggest Texas Alternator and Starter Service, I've had a couple done here 120-150 bucks and come back looking like new.

Park_W

Thanks, rd. I'll check in with them. The shop that did mine (starter and convertible top pump motor) was in San Antonio, but, as stated above, they're out of business now.

Unknown

Dang...that starter looks too pretty to put back into the dark engine compartment!

Park_W

308, what series starter is that (year or model nr.)? I'd like to get an accurate idea of which ones those ST49 coils will work in.

Park_W

rdmontez wrote:

For you folks near San Antonio I would suggest Texas Alternator and Starter Service.

Texas A&S Service says they don't wind field coils and don't know who does, but they've had pretty good luck in finding available 12v coils that will work in a particular starter. They ask that one send the entire starter, not just the "field case" with the coils in it. Probably a good idea anyway if the starter hasn't been checked out in recent times.

hudsonguy

Park,



Here's a link to what has to be the mother lode of starter field coil numbers!



http://dixie-electric.com/catalog/9810-COM2-002.pdf

SuperDave

hudsonguy wrote:

Park,



Here's a link to what has to be the mother lode of starter field coil numbers!



http://dixie-electric.com/catalog/9810-COM2-002.pdf

Thanks for posting the link. I found that site yesterday on a wild Google search, then LOST it. Couldn't remember where I found it. Sheeesh! Anyway it's interesting that neither the ST-49 Nor the ST-144M that Park has in his twelve volt conversion instructions, is in the Dixie cross reference.. Darn...:mad:

Park_W

Too bad that Dixie cross-reference list doesn't reach back to the Auto-Lite era. Maybe we can find someone with an Auto-Lite master catalog that would tell us what starters shared the same field coils. I see that the MCL-6006 starter was used on '48-'50 Hudsons except Pacemakers, so we know the ST-49 coils work for those. Now we need a good 12v coils number for the MCH 6109 starter. That takes us up through '54 for the bigger engines (Eights, 262s and 308s).

SuperDave

Well Guys, I found someone that seems to know what they are talking about. This is the information I got..The original field coil was a ST-12 The St-12 is a 6 volt 4 coil series paralell connection(2 FC per series) A direct replacement to 12 volt is ST-12X at 49.95 . Also a ST-49 4 coil set can be used. The ST-49 is a couple bucks cheaper at $47.95 from Washington State. Plus shipping. I am ordering two sets and will report back with the results. Now to find an undamaged ring gear..

Park_W

Dave, whose part number is that ST-12X coil set? What brand should one ask for? Can your source tell us what 12v coils would work in the MCH 6109 starter ('51 and later 262/254/302 engines w/stick shift), and the MCH 6204 (same engines w/automatic trans)?

SuperDave

Park W wrote:

Dave, whose part number is that ST-12X coil set? What brand should one ask for? Can your source tell us what 12v coils would work in the MCH 6109 starter ('51 and later 262/254/302 engines w/stick shift), and the MCH 6204 (same engines w/automatic trans)?

Park,

I will have all the Hudson numbers as soon as he does the research. He agreed to check them all out for me. Rather than swamp him with requests from several people, I'll keep his identity to myself until then. I will publish everything including ordering info as soon as he gets back to me.

The ST is an "ACE" prefix, so if anyone has an Ace catalog.. I think they are out of business..

Today on the phone he told me the ST-12x is recommended because of it's additional torque over the ST-49. I am ordering one ST-12X and one set St-49 to do my own evaluation. Stay tuned..

Park_W

Here's what Ken Warner at Classic Generator in TX has provided. It covers all starters '41-54. All the numbers are Ace numbers. They're out of business but most shops can cross-reference those to currently available items. I'll be folding this info into my latest Tech Notes on 12v conversion. Ken is reachable at kennethw@classicgenerator.com. He says:



"I can supply 12 volt conversion coils or do the complete conversion and restoration on any of the starters you listed. Ace was bought out by another company and the other company shut down the field coil operation. At present there are NO starter and generator field coils mfg. in the U.S., they all come from either Canada or Mexico. Quality has NOT gone down however, actually the quality of the current coils seems to have improved. There are a few suppliers that are supplying overseas made coils that are complete junk. Stay away from those.



"I can still use and cross old ACE numbers."



MCL-6006 = ST-49 12V .......48-50 exc. 50 Pacemaker

MZ-4159 = ST-48 12V .........50 Pacemaker

MCH-6109 = ST-33-X 12V ...51-54 std trans 8-cyl., 262 and 308 engines

MCH-6204 = ST-33-X 12V ...51-54 auto trans, all except Jet

MZ-4167 = ST-48 12V .........51-54 std trans 232's and Jets

MZ-4172 = ST-48 12V .........53-54 Jets with auto trans

MZ-4092 = ST-48 12V .........41-47 6-cyl

MAB-4100 =ST-31 12V ........41-47 8-cyl

SuperDave

Thanks for the numbers Park!

The Fellow I made contact with just told me he has been sick and hasn't looked at my list yet..And my parts order for two sets of field coils went out yesterday.. maybe, maybe not. PayPal was sent day of order. Stay tuned..

In case anyone is wondering it's Old Car Parts North West, Inc. Kent Washington. contact is "Ray" phone 206-300-1083. email is ocpnwi@gmail.com . Maybe if he gets more questions, he will move a bit faster? I hope he's legit. Maybe someone in that neck of the woods can check him or the company out? It would be nice to have more than one source for parts and maybe another set of part numbers.



Update.. Got confirmation that the items are in the mail..:)

SuperDave

I got the field coils and both look like an easy swap. Here are the pictures and as you can see. one is series and one paralell. Both are new manufactured by Wilson in Canada. I tried the web site to try and order a catalog, but the email bounced. I didn't look any further.I am going to use the st-12X which he says should have a little more torque. Then I'll rebuild my spare starter with the st-49. I did find an Auto-Lite parts catalog for 1935 thru 1949. Just has OEM part numbers. At least I will know what part number I am looking for when looking for original parts. The catalog lists all automotive products from Auto-Lite.

russmaas

Will want to use starter number 6109. It has less torque. If you use the standard starter for an 8 cyl and convert it to 12 volts it will start to kick back on the flywheel. Learned from experience on this one.

SuperDave

Well I have progress to report. I used the ST-12X field coils. Installed a new bendix drive as well as a new ring gear. This starter sounds just like a 6 volt starter on a well charged 6 volt battery. No "BANG" and no grinding! Helluva job to switch all that stuff out for an old man, but well worth the effort.. Can't wait for the next cruise. Never did hear back from the guy I bought the coils from.. Go figger,maybe business is good enough?

[Deleted User]

Dave:

What kind of price for the ST-12X coils? Sounds interesting and very strong. Thanks for sharing the info. Bob

[Deleted User]

Dave are those coils from Wilson Auto Electric? if so they have a branch here in my city. I will go over and take your numbers and see what they have. Need to convert 3 starters myself so would be good to know if I can source parts down the road. Also know a older fellow up here who does auto electric rebuilds and conversions so can ask him as well.

SuperDave

Yes these were supplied by Wilson Auto Electric of Canada. I paid 49.95 USD for the ST-12-X. I would assume any decent Auto Electric shop would have access to these parts. The shop here in my town didn't seem to be very interested in helping in the beginning. When i came back with the coils he got more interested. Charged me 74.00 to install them along with new brushes. Now add a few more bucks for a new starter drive and you have a Cadillac Starter LOL

[Deleted User]

Is that the part number Wilson is using? ST-12-X or do they have their own part number on the coils. They are only a few minutes from my house so I can go over and pick their brains.

SuperDave

51hornetA wrote:

Is that the part number Wilson is using? ST-12-X or do they have their own part number on the coils. They are only a few minutes from my house so I can go over and pick their brains.

HMM a very good question. I have already installed the ST-12X so can't examine that set, BUT.. The St-49 coil set has a tag as shown in the picture, that was no doubt attached by the supplier. "Old Car parts NW". There is a small tag on the coils that has the Wilson Logo and the following numbers..55-06-4427 also W09303. Also says "Made in Mexico". I wish I had looked closer at the other set before I installed them. I am fairly sure that the ST-12X and ST-49 are "ACE" numbers and as stated above, out of business. I'm guessing that Wilson should be able to cross the numbers for you. I wish I had a Wilson shop near me so I could pick their brain too!:)

Let us know what you find out. I should have looked closer for more numbers..:eek:

Park_W

Based on what Ken Warner, our reference source in TX said, the ST-12-X isn't an Ace number and actually shows as as for some Ford starters (though it apparently works in some Hudson units as well).



I'd use the Ace number stated above for any Hudson starter crossover.

[Deleted User]

Park is right I could not find ST-12-X but could find ST-12 do not know if that is the same. Here are the part numbers I got from Wilson. Still have to go down and discuss this stuff.

SuperDave

great information. I'm anxious to know the prices from them. Keep us informed

SuperDave

As reported before, the ST-12X was a pefect fit on the 49 starter. Yesterday I started the conversion on a spare starter using the ST-49. I ran into a snag. The St-49 is made up of four coils in series. The coil set has just two connections, One for the input post and the other for the insulated brushes. After connecting the post to the coils set, the remaining insulated brush connection ends up being aligned with one of the brush holders, not between two of them as original. This coil set will require a brush set with one long insulated pig tail and one short one.The original and the ST-12X used the same equal length pig tails. I will check with a local shop to see if something is readily available. I've seen several on Ebay that "looked" like they would work.So there is such a thing..

Also, My understanding from my supplier was that the ST-12 was a 6 volt coil set and the St-12X was 12 volt. He didn't say what they were originally built for. I would guess Ford or Mopar.. I did hear from him Friday and he said he would be getting me the information I requested. I guess he was out of town at his "day job"..So perhaps we may have some more information to add to Parks input.

[Deleted User]

Ok folks spent some time today with the Tech guys at Wilson who were pretty good guys. Pulled out all the old catalogs and stuff to help me track this stuff down.



They could not find the parts using the starter numbers MCH-6109 and 6204 they could however find them from the ACE number ST-33-X that Park supplied.



MCH-6109 = ST-33-X 12V ...51-54 std trans 8-cyl., 262 and 308 engines

MCH-6204 = ST-33-X 12V ...51-54 auto trans, all except Jet



This cross refs to the Wilson part number 55-06-4467 the bad news is they do not carry this anymore. They also had no listing for ST-12-X this did not show up.



They asked me to find out what the Wilson number was on the ST-12-X that Dave used. So its back to you Dave to get the Wilson number from the guy who supplied you with coils. I will go back down and spec those out when you do.



Also they told me If I send a set of coils to there Tech office in Winnipeg they will spec them out and see what replacement they can find or wind 12V replacements for me. I have plenty of starters here but before that I am going to call my buddy who rebuilds starters and does these conversions to get his advice he sold me some rebuilt Hudson starters at a flea market so he may also know the cross ref numbers.



Nice thing was they did not laugh when I said what I was doing they got out the catalogs and tried to help so that is nice to see.