Harmonic balancer removal in 47? Tips?

Unknown

I am trying to diagnose/fix what appears to be a timing chain problem in my 47 6 cyl (which should be gears, but the symptoms indicate chain and gear -- another story).



I have removed the 1 1/2" bolt which holds the crank pulley/harmonic balancer in place but can't get the pulley/balancer off. It appears to be a straight fit not tapered, has a keyway etc. But there are no holes to screw a puller into, and fairly gentle encouragment with a pry bar is having no noticable effect. I don't have a puller with long enough arms/claws or width to get behind the balancer.



Suggestions? Am I missing a specialized tool? Is there a technique I don't know about?



Any help would be appreciated.



Thanks.

PAULARGETYPE

Hudson had a puller that had short puller arms it would fit inside the frame and around the pully with a bolt down the center for pressing off the pully

Uncle Josh

I pull them with a rather generic puller from Auto Zome etc. with arms that get behind the pulley.



Maybe you can borrow one from your friendly garage.

Geoff

It will be extremely rare to find a chain in there, unless the engine has been replaced with a later model. I know the workshop manual says not thammer on the dampener, but I have done so on many occasions, and they nudge off quite well, if you turn the engine over as you are doing it to stop it wedging sideways. If you have a fibre gear it is most likely the centre hub loose if you are getting a variation in valve timing. Replace it with an alloy gear.

Unknown

Geoff C., N.Z. wrote:

It will be extremely rare to find a chain in there, unless the engine has been replaced with a later model. I know the workshop manual says not thammer on the dampener, but I have done so on many occasions, and they nudge off quite well, if you turn the engine over as you are doing it to stop it wedging sideways. If you have a fibre gear it is most likely the centre hub loose if you are getting a variation in valve timing. Replace it with an alloy gear.

Excellent advice, and your thoughts on the fibre gear spinning away from the centre hub make sense -- it would explain it pefectly.



Thanks.

Jon B

I've seen that happen before (the hub separating from the outer portion). Sometimes it will actually move back in alignment, then the two parts will shift out of alignment again, making for a most confusing situation!

SuperDave

If you decide to use a hammer.. Use a heavy Brass hammer ,dead blow hammer or a heavy steel one with a block of wood. beating on it with a claw hammer will most likely just make marks and dings on it. leading to further frustration.

Fred

If you replace gear as Geof suggests, I am told you should replace both gears as the angle of the teeth are different on the aluminum gears as apposed to the fiber gears

Fred

Clutchguy

I would not recommend using a hammer! If you don't have the proper tools and knowledge,PAY someone that does! You will be many $$$$$ ahead, or go rent the correct puller. Once you have the damper removed and the cover off,inspect what needs to be done or what you find,and re-post here. If it does have the fiber gear and the teeth are gone,remember,those pieces are in the oil pan and in all the slinger troughs for oiling in the block. When installing the new aluminum gear,it will again,require a puller to remove the lower crankshaft gear, different from the damper puller. The aluminum cam gear[20 degree pitch] has to be mated with a 20 deg.crank gear. I would inspect everything and VERIFY that if it does have a fiber gear,and it is stripped of teeth,MAKE SURE THAT it hasn't been mis-matched to begin with. The lower crank gear will either have a 166--- part # or it will have a 20 on it. If it has a fiber gear,to ease the problems you are experiencing,I would put another fiber back in. These last at least 20,000 miles,if not twice that. How many miles do you think you will drive it and how hard??. I am not trying to "dis" anyone or contradict the advise of others,but merely offering my Opinion and experience.CG

Unknown

Clutch guy wrote:

I would not recommend using a hammer! If you don't have the proper tools and knowledge,PAY someone that does! You will be many $$$$$ ahead, or go rent the correct puller. Once you have the damper removed and the cover off,inspect what needs to be done or what you find,and re-post here. If it does have the fiber gear and the teeth are gone,remember,those pieces are in the oil pan and in all the slinger troughs for oiling in the block. When installing the new aluminum gear,it will again,require a puller to remove the lower crankshaft gear, different from the damper puller. The aluminum cam gear[20 degree pitch] has to be mated with a 20 deg.crank gear. I would inspect everything and VERIFY that if it does have a fiber gear,and it is stripped of teeth,MAKE SURE THAT it hasn't been mis-matched to begin with. The lower crank gear will either have a 166--- part # or it will have a 20 on it. If it has a fiber gear,to ease the problems you are experiencing,I would put another fiber back in. These last at least 20,000 miles,if not twice that. How many miles do you think you will drive it and how hard??. I am not trying to "dis" anyone or contradict the advise of others,but merely offering my Opinion and experience.CG

Good advice. I intend to try to rent a puller before I do anything else. Your idea to account for missing teeth is an excellent heads up. I probably wouldn't have thought of that right away. Once off, we'll see what the gears look like/what needs replacing. Thanks.

junkcarfann

When you use a puller, make sure that the center bolt of the puller is not damaging the internal threads of the crankshaft, the threads that hold the big bolt at the front of the crankshaft.



I almost did that on a 1940 six, but stopped before the damage got serious.



To avoid damaging those threads, I put a deep-well 3/8" drive socket (I think it was a size 7/16") that fit easily into the crankshaft hole, with the end of the socket that fits onto the ratchet facing outwards, towards the front of the car.



You want to use a socket that is long enough so that the puller bolt cannot touch the crankshaft bolt's threads.



Then I put the puller on, and let the force of the center bolt of the puller press against the socket, rather than against the threads in the crankshaft. It worked fine.

bobbydamit

If you have access to steel, have someone cut you a couple of pieces that are 1/2 thick and will fit behind the balancer. This gives you something to grab onto with a puller. If you start to bend the plates, rap the center of the puller bolt until the pulley moves. If this is not an option and you cannot get a puller from NAPA or Car Quest, I have done this as a last resort. Drilling two holes in the damper close to the center of the distance between the outisde and the center will allow bolts and nuts to be inserted and a double bar puller can be used by putting the bolts through the bars and washer/nut them. be sure to use a thick washer over the threads of the crank to protect the threads from the puller bolt. The balancer will still be balanced, if the holes are 180 degrees across from each other. I would recommend paying someone first before doing this, but it does work in a pinch. Very slow drilling will get it done, Fast will not.

Unknown

Thanks for the advice -- creative!



I used a universal puller and (very slowly and carefully) managed to get it off.



Problem now is: the two gears look fine, no teeth missing. More mystery -- but hey! that's half the fun I guess.



Thanks. Will post if more problems.

Geoff

Is the gear alloy or fibre? If fibre, you need to inspect the centre hub where it joins to the fibre, as this can come loose. If it is alloy you have wasted your time!

Geoff.

bobbydamit

Geoff C., N.Z. wrote:

Is the gear alloy or fibre? If fibre, you need to inspect the centre hub where it joins to the fibre, as this can come loose. If it is alloy you have wasted your time!

Geoff.

I have always had nothing but respect for Geoff. Had many talks with him when I had a 30 Essex, even met the guy once, but in this instance, Geoff, I have to disagree with you. If it is an alloy gear, and he took the balancer off, he did not waste his time. This is a perfect time to check the stretch of the chain, ie. the lash as found, and the condition of the seal and shaft surface.



:rolleyes:How many times have we looked at the sloppy cam movement when setting timing with a light? And what about those little drips, not enough to pull everything apart, but still makes a mark on the floor and a mess of fhe engines new paint. Or wished we had replaced the cover seal before it grooved the crank. Well this guy has it made in the shade if he takes advantage of his situation and does all of the above. Never time wasted my friend Geoff, if the cars are better off when we put them back together.:Dc

Unknown

This ones just what I need , OK, here is what I have happening . I set the timeing with timeing light on TDC and it runs under no load . take it on the road and it sputters . HOWEVER , if I set the timeing by ear it runs faster and smoother but the timeing mark on the flywheel is nowhere in sight with the timeing light . Take it o the road and it hesitates on getting going but if I ease down on the gas it does ok thru 1st-2nd gear and if I take it real easy on the gas I can get it up to mid range in 3rd . With it set by ear to run the best when I put the timeing light on #6 plug the flywheel mark shows up there . From what you guys are saying it looks like I have the slipped problem with the center hub . Any way to check this , like maybe when piston is at TDC the gear marks will be off ? This problem developed while doing a rebuild, ran OK before , does the timeing gear dry out and loose adhesion if left off for a few months ? If so then the spare I have from another old engine is probably wasted time trying it , right ? Are the gears the same for ALL year model 212 engines ? BUD

junkcarfann

bobbydamit wrote:

This is a perfect time to check the stretch of the chain, ie. the lash as found, and the condition of the seal and shaft surface.

If it is a 1947 engine, it does not have a timing chain...just two gears meshing.



The 1948 and later stepdown 6 has a timing chain, but not a fiber gear on the camshaft.

Clutchguy

junkcarfann wrote:

If it is a 1947 engine, it does not have a timing chain...just two gears meshing.



The 1948 and later stepdown 6 has a timing chain, but not a fiber gear on the camshaft.

He was probably referring to his '30 Essex-chain driven.

[Deleted User]

Canadian Hud wrote:

Thanks for the advice -- creative!



I used a universal puller and (very slowly and carefully) managed to get it off.



Problem now is: the two gears look fine, no teeth missing. More mystery -- but hey! that's half the fun I guess.



Thanks. Will post if more problems.

All Hudson engines, 6 or 8's, had fiber timing gears to year 1942. !946 to 1947 6 cylinders had aluminum timing gears as well as the 8's to 1952. To change to aluminum up to 1942, you have to modify the front engine motor mount plate. If you have my tech tip book, volume one, (1) go to page 29 and it has the complete story on timing gears. When I remove a crank pulley, I have a crank bolt that I machined the wrench part off and drill a center hole and cut a groove for a screw driver and install in the crank. You will never hurt the threads. Do not hammer or drill holes as this part is balanced and you can have a slight vibration at 18 miles per hour. Walt.

Unknown

walt's garage-53 wrote:

All Hudson engines, 6 or 8's, had fiber timing gears to year 1942. !946 to 1947 6 cylinders had aluminum timing gears as well as the 8's to 1952. To change to aluminum up to 1942, you have to modify the front engine motor mount plate. If you have my tech tip book, volume one, (1) go to page 29 and it has the complete story on timing gears. When I remove a crank pulley, I have a crank bolt that I machined the wrench part off and drill a center hole and cut a groove for a screw driver and install in the crank. You will never hurt the threads. Do not hammer or drill holes as this part is balanced and you can have a slight vibration at 18 miles per hour. Walt.

Well now I am a little confused. I have an aluminum crank gear, but a fibre cam gear. Are you saying I will have to modify the front motor mount plate on my 47? The cam gear looks easy to remove (three bolts on the face of it will facilitate a puller quite easily), but are you saying that the aluminum crank gear needs a special tool?



As I understand it, I should replace both cam and crank gears (even though the crank is aluminum already) so that the degree of engagement (the teeth) are correct.



A) do I have to replace both gears, though the crank is already aluminum?

do I need to modify my front motor mount plate if I change crank gear?

C) do I need a special puller for the crank gear beyond what is available at Parts Source (local supply co)?



Just want to get this right (before the good weather comes

Unknown

Geoff , lets back this thing up to your first post . You say your trying to fix what appears to be a timing problem . Have you ever had it running right or did you aquire it running like it is . Looks like somebody has been in there changeing gears . That thing will run with the cam 180 degrees out , but not right ! AND, it will show compression with the pinky in the plug hole as tho it was in right ! Here's a way to tell. The bolts that hold the cam gear on are unevenly spaced by about 1/16 inch . Between 2 of them it will be shorter . If you measure from them to the 3rd one those 2 measurements will be the same , so lets call this third one the LONG HOLE . IF the cam is in right it should be at 7:30 by the clock, not 7 not 8 or anywhere else , 7:30 and the marks on the gears should then match , one dot on the crank and 2 on the cam, the crank dot goes between the other 2 and the TDC timing mark on the flywheel should be lined up with the pointer and the Dist. rotor at the #1 plug wire . You don't need a puller for the cam gear, just nudge it loose/away from the block with a screwdriver. BUD

Huddy42

G'Day CanadianHudson,



The crank gear will be steel or cast iron and not aluminium,I have NEVER seen an aluminium crank gear in my 50 years of playing around with H/T vehicles. I have a 1942 Hudson and when I bought it the first thing I did was to check the timing gears, to my surprise the fibre gear was 20 Deg to suit the crank gear, the early fibre ones are 14 1/2 Deg, so just do a double check on the cam gear.(fibre) If it is 20 deg it will have 20 stamped on the gear some place.



If replacing to the 20 deg gears, YES you need to change both gears, and modify the engine plate.



To modify the front engine plate you need to counter sink the two screws behind the gear, or what I have done is , grind the heads down on the bolts that are there now, just leave enough to get a spanner or socket on them and then locktite them in, but make sure they clear the back of the gear, you don't need a puller for the cam gear, but, will need one for the crank gear, be very care not to chip any of the teeth on the crank gear if they are the cast type.



If you need any more info email me at huddy42@optusnet.com.au



Les.P. Down Under.

Unknown

37 Terraplane#2 wrote:

Geoff , lets back this thing up to your first post . You say your trying to fix what appears to be a timing problem . Have you ever had it running right or did you aquire it running like it is . Looks like somebody has been in there changeing gears . That thing will run with the cam 180 degrees out , but not right ! AND, it will show compression with the pinky in the plug hole as tho it was in right ! Here's a way to tell. The bolts that hold the cam gear on are unevenly spaced by about 1/16 inch . Between 2 of them it will be shorter . If you measure from them to the 3rd one those 2 measurements will be the same , so lets call this third one the LONG HOLE . IF the cam is in right it should be at 7:30 by the clock, not 7 not 8 or anywhere else , 7:30 and the marks on the gears should then match , one dot on the crank and 2 on the cam, the crank dot goes between the other 2 and the TDC timing mark on the flywheel should be lined up with the pointer and the Dist. rotor at the #1 plug wire . You don't need a puller for the cam gear, just nudge it loose/away from the block with a screwdriver. BUD

Thanks Bud. Yes, the car was running beautifully in the fall. Your tips and those of others should help me get this thing back on track. Very good info and easily decipherable. Thanks!!

Unknown

Huddy42 wrote:

G'Day CanadianHudson,



The crank gear will be steel or cast iron and not aluminium,I have NEVER seen an aluminium crank gear in my 50 years of playing around with H/T vehicles. I have a 1942 Hudson and when I bought it the first thing I did was to check the timing gears, to my surprise the fibre gear was 20 Deg to suit the crank gear, the early fibre ones are 14 1/2 Deg, so just do a double check on the cam gear.(fibre) If it is 20 deg it will have 20 stamped on the gear some place.



If replacing to the 20 deg gears, YES you need to change both gears, and modify the engine plate.



To modify the front engine plate you need to counter sink the two screws behind the gear, or what I have done is , grind the heads down on the bolts that are there now, just leave enough to get a spanner or socket on them and then locktite them in, but make sure they clear the back of the gear, you don't need a puller for the cam gear, but, will need one for the crank gear, be very care not to chip any of the teeth on the crank gear if they are the cast type.



If you need any more info email me at huddy42@optusnet.com.au



Les.P. Down Under.

You're absolutely right. Cast, not aluminum. Don't know what I was thinking -- probably that it was metal, not fibre. Thanks for the catch!



I'll look for the stamp or change gears if necessary. Again, great info. I'll get back to it tomorrow well armed and more comfortable with the process. Thanks very much!

Clutchguy

Geoff,look very close for the "20" on the crankgear. This will tell you how to proceed. If the crankgear has a "20" and not the 6 digit Hudson part#, it will tell you where to start. very simple.

Unknown

OK GEOFF , little confusion there about gears . It now looks like you have the original type gears , no need to change either unless the fiber gear slipped on it's hub , not likely just sitting over winter , this would happen while driveing it . OK , now tell us what caused you to think you had a timeing problem . If you haven't disturbed the distributor setting or pulled any gears off you might want to put the cover back on and check some things. No need to put the pully back on for this, you'll only be running it a couple minutes at a time . Use a timeing light and see what it shows, I put some chalk on the flywheel mark to make it easy to see . If it's not there it did jump time . If it's on the mark at idle rev it a couple times to see if it advances . If it does not move go to the dist , if it's vacume advance look for leaks .Take the cap off and advance the rotor by hand noticeing if it is stiff to move , has springs so will resist some. Move it as far as you can and release it . IT should pop back to it's original spot . If it don't take the rotor off , the shaft will have a little felt pad in it , take it out and put some penetrateing oil in the shaft , put the rotor back on and work it back and forth untill it frees up and pops back on it's own, may need to soak over night ,then put some very light oil in the shaft, put the felt back . ---BUD.

Clutchguy

Clutch guy wrote:

Geoff,look very close for the "20" on the crankgear. This will tell you how to proceed. If the crankgear has a "20" and not the 6 digit Hudson part#, it will tell you where to start. very simple.

"20" = Aluminum cam gear. If it has a 166--- part#,this is the matching number for a fiber. Provided the crank gear is good,match the cam gear to it,this will save alot of time. The crank gear is hard to remove in the car. If the car was running good when parked last year,I now am wondering why you think it is timing related???.

Unknown

Clutch guy wrote:

"20" = Aluminum cam gear. If it has a 166--- part#,this is the matching number for a fiber. Provided the crank gear is good,match the cam gear to it,this will save alot of time. The crank gear is hard to remove in the car. If the car was running good when parked last year,I now am wondering why you think it is timing related???.

---

My thoughts also per my previous post , I'm in favor of

putting it back together , hope he hasn't changed anything , and then we can take him thru checking things out and also come up with the odd ball things that can happen . BUD

Unknown

Sorry guys -- now I am confusing YOU!!



The car stopped running last fall. Just getting around to working on it now.



It ran like a top. I parked it on a very slight incline. When I came out it sounded like the starter had spun -- high whining/fast turning over, wouldn't run at all. Okay, but in gear the car lurches forward, so the starter must be engaging. Next checked compression in cyl 1 -- zero. Fan turns over with the starter and the rotor turns when I take the cap off...



So, I assumed the timing had slipped so badly that the valves were open when the piston did the compression cycle -- hence the no resistance fast spin of the motor when I hit the starter. This would be easier to explain if there WAS as chain (skipped a tooth, broken chain etc) and if I thought the car rolled back a bit on the hill against a taut chain, but I am thinking it is still possible if the centre of the fibre gear is spun away. The hub of the cam gear doesn't LOOK broken away, but I am going to take it off tomorrow and inspect or try to mark it and see what happens when I turn the key.



Am I way off base? Other ideas?



(Wish I lived in your neighbourhoods - this would be a lot easier



Thanks, as always.

Unknown

Slow down just a bit , we'll get there faster in the end . If it was running good , info on gear #s is good to know but not relevant in this case . You have the right gears or it would not have been OK before . Just eyeballing the cam gear will not likely tell you anything . Lets look at a couple of things before you dissturb anything . You have the cover off , turn the engine to where the one dot on the crank gear is between the 2 dots on the cam gear EXACTLY CENTERED. then look at the dist. rotor and see where it is at in relation to the plug wires on the cap . It should be on #1 . Also do the "LONG HOLE" check on the cam I explained earlier . Both the rotor and the long hole should be right on , the 7:30 position is not near there , it is THERE . Let us know what you find before you do anything else and we can be of more/better help . I check the computer in the morning /about noon and in the evening . BUD

Clutchguy

Hudson308 wrote:

Well, if it won't build compression there's definitely a cam timing issue.

Did you ever find the number stamped on the crank gear?

Geoff, spend the time checking it out. Does the distrib.rotor turn smoothly or skip?-not that it really matters at this point. As Hudson308 states,no compression= crank vs. cam timing is off. Walt stated that '46 and on had a aluminum gear,and if your car has a fiber gear you are probably going to discover mismatched gears. If you have a 20 on the crank gear,I have a aluminum cam gear. Waiting for you to post back here.