Harmonic balancer removal in 47? Tips?

Unknown

Now guys , lets not confuse Geoff . I know nothing about those numbers , what I do know is it would not have run long with a missmatch and it would eat the fiber gear to where ANYONE would say "THIS AINT GOOD " We don't even know if the engine is really a 47 , if someone has allready changed both the crank and cam gear in a 47 , put an earlier crank and cam in a 47 . Lets find the sickness before we prescribe a cure , we can and will find his problem if we start at the beginning and take one step at a time . BUD

Clutchguy

A low RPM and then the engine dies??, now has no compression? He should feel lucky,high RPM and the gear breaks and the cam and crank make contact on a 3x5 it will make an inspection hole at about #2 or #3. It does sound like he is on the right track. Darned old cars. He should call the dealer and ask about the Warranty!

Unknown

At this point with the info he gives I agree that I also think he's in the right place , but not positive , so let's go back to the start and have him do the things that proove it , { I don't think sticking in new gears to see what will happen is the way to go } then if he needs gears it's time to match what goes back in . BUD

bobbydamit

junkcarfann wrote:

If it is a 1947 engine, it does not have a timing chain...just two gears meshing.



The 1948 and later stepdown 6 has a timing chain, but not a fiber gear on the camshaft.

Sorry I thought he said he had a chain and gear, which would be a newer engine, 48 or newer. Now sounds like slippage. happens :eek:all the time

Unknown

37 Terraplane#2 wrote:

Slow down just a bit , we'll get there faster in the end . If it was running good , info on gear #s is good to know but not relevant in this case . You have the right gears or it would not have been OK before . Just eyeballing the cam gear will not likely tell you anything . Lets look at a couple of things before you dissturb anything . You have the cover off , turn the engine to where the one dot on the crank gear is between the 2 dots on the cam gear EXACTLY CENTERED. then look at the dist. rotor and see where it is at in relation to the plug wires on the cap . It should be on #1 . Also do the "LONG HOLE" check on the cam I explained earlier . Both the rotor and the long hole should be right on , the 7:30 position is not near there , it is THERE . Let us know what you find before you do anything else and we can be of more/better help . I check the computer in the morning /about noon and in the evening . BUD

I am going to take all your advice and check the car out tomorrow early afternoon. I'll check gears, numbers, rotor turning, compression, maybe have a beer, and then let you know what I find. Thanks guys!!!

Unknown

GREAT , what we really need to know is with the flywheel mark on tdc and the gear marks in perfect alignment , where the rotor and "long hole' is at . IF the cam gear has slipped on the hub both will be off and no other testing is needed . Then it's time to take them off and put on a matching set. For the difference in cost versus the work/headache when a fiber gear goes bad I highly recomend going the aluminum cam gear route . FINAL PROOF BEFORE ASSEMBLY, line up the hole pattern on the new cam gear and the old one and see if the dots are out of allignment . When you put the new gears in remember the 7:30 trick with flywheel and gear marks lined up . The flywheel must be on mark or you could be putting it in 180 degrees off just useng the gear marks . BUD

Geoff

Bud, I might be missing something, but I cannot understand your last instruction about being 180 deg. out. The dot marks are in fixed relationshiip to t.d.c. The flywheel can only be put on in one position, likewise the crank gear and cam gears. How possibly could anything be installed half a turn wrong?

Geoff.

Unknown

Just covering all things Geoff ,He's putting gears on a cam with the engine in the car, if he did the finger in the plug hole thing it will have compresion even on the back side of the cam for an instant . it is possable to put it in 180 out,.and the dang thing will even start and run good at low rpm . won't have any power tho . Just trying to impress on him to check EVERYTHING , leave nothing to chance , look at EVERYTHING that indicates where you are , not just one . The important part is the position of what I've called the " LONG HOLE " that will tell if the cam is on the fireing stroke and not on the back side . And to look for what is causeing his problem BEFORE he takes things apart or makes adjustments and by doing so destroys the evidence I guess you might call it . The things I've told him to look for are more to determine what the problem is than anything else . BUD

Unknown

37 Terraplane#2 wrote:

Slow down just a bit , we'll get there faster in the end . If it was running good , info on gear #s is good to know but not relevant in this case . You have the right gears or it would not have been OK before . Just eyeballing the cam gear will not likely tell you anything . Lets look at a couple of things before you dissturb anything . You have the cover off , turn the engine to where the one dot on the crank gear is between the 2 dots on the cam gear EXACTLY CENTERED. then look at the dist. rotor and see where it is at in relation to the plug wires on the cap . It should be on #1 . Also do the "LONG HOLE" check on the cam I explained earlier . Both the rotor and the long hole should be right on , the 7:30 position is not near there , it is THERE . Let us know what you find before you do anything else and we can be of more/better help . I check the computer in the morning /about noon and in the evening . BUD

I am getting something wrong The dots on the gears line up. The flywheel mark is pretty accurate (maybe advanced a little). The rotor points to #1 when the dots on the gears and the timing mark are lined up. There doesn't appear to be any breakage or slippage on the fibre cam gear. The crank gear is the appropriate one to match the fibre cam gear. There aren't any teeth broken or missing. The bolts on the cam gear are at the "7:30 position". All looks good.



Yet, motor spins fast and won't start. It spins so fast I thought it was the starter when I first heard it, but the crankshaft turns over etc. so the starter is working. A neighbour put his finger in the spark plug hole and said there was no compression -- I didn't check it myself.



I am doing this alone and the car is parked 30 minutes away, so I work on it in fits and starts and I'm not able to stick my pinky in the spark plug hole and turn the car over at the same time, etc. Next week, a friend has agreed to come out and help. We'll start the diagnosis from scratch and see what we come up with.



Bummer. I must be driving you guys nuts. It will probably be something really simple -- doh!

53jetman

Geoff - Have you checked to determine if the valves are stuck in open possition? That's what this sounds like to me. I had this problem with my '33 Terraplane engine.



Jerry

53jetman

Unknown

NO GEOFF , not you , the CAR !! On working alone, I use a remote starter switch you can get real cheap at the parts house . Hooks with alligator clips to neg bat post on neg GRD system and the small wire terminal on the starter. YOU CAN WATCH ANYTHING HAPPENING USEING IT . Or you can just use 2 wires and zap them together . OK, lets trash everything and start fresh when you get help or a remote switch . I expect to be gone next week , one of the guys supposed to get his block back from the machine shop that I've been helping , but there's allways somebody here to help . AGAIN , go slow , it's faster , don't change anything untill you talk to the guys on the forum , they may want to ask questions . Somebody or collectively an answer will be found . BUD

Unknown

53jetman wrote:

Geoff - Have you checked to determine if the valves are stuck in open possition? That's what this sounds like to me. I had this problem with my '33 Terraplane engine.



Jerry

53jetman

---- SEE THERE !! Dang good idea . Pull the covers off the side and watch whats going on there when you turn it over . Check compression on ALL cylinders , and remember the valve does not have to be any more than barely open and there will be no compression so look at tappet clearance with a feeler gauge , the idea being a lifter can hang and you want to know if it's .008 or 1/8 inch . . If this is what it is lets hope its exhaust only , those you can use a wooden dowl and hopefully keep knocking them down till they free up . And Get that switch, you'll love it if you have to work alone .

Unknown

53jetman wrote:

Geoff - Have you checked to determine if the valves are stuck in open possition? That's what this sounds like to me. I had this problem with my '33 Terraplane engine.



Jerry

53jetman

I think Jerry probably hit it right off , I've got one in the drive right now with zero compression on #3 . The guy's squaling busted piston , broken rod etc etc. NOT SO ! With a piece of tie wire I was able to find that the intake valve is stuck up against the head and the piston goes up and down . Gonna get at it after a coffee break , see if keepers came off , maybe broken valve spring .

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OK. How about some tricks that somebody used that worked to free up Geoff's valves without some major dissassembly . ?

53jetman

The only right way to free up the stuck valves would be to remove the head, and gently persuade the valves to move. Probably have to remove the valves, and ream the valve guides slightly. Those old splasher engines tended to like to stick the valves when they were not exercised often. On my '33, I drove the car to a meet about four miles from my home. It set there all day, and when I went to start it up to drive it home, it was like there wasn't any pistons in the engine. The starter just wined and wined.



Jerry

53jetman

Clutchguy

A couple of things to add to this thread. First, I pulled out a couple of lower crankshaft timing gears that both have a "20" on them. One has a part# 166310 and the other doesn't?,don't really know why?. Next,is modern fuel. Modern fuel is very poor quality. iT WILL GO BAD IN 6 MONTHS. You can try to add fresh fuel to it but I have found it doesn't make the bad fuel -Good. Bad and/or stale fuel sticks valves. If your engine has relatively new valve guides,they are prone to sticking much easier than an engine with worn guides. This applies with about anything. Once the engine is warmed up real good,the varnish or gum melts and seems to let the valves not stick but once it cools off and allowed to set for a few hours,the valves get pushed open and this is where they stay. I mention this because while restoring your car,which might take a few years in some cases,the fuel in the tank goes bad and will cause as I have explained. This has been my experience more than once. It has happen just recently on a car from Alabama. The customer said he had had the tank professionally done and knew that there was no problem with it. As soon as he finally got it started,there is no mistake for stall fuel smell. As a partial solution, I have been adding a product called "seaform"which has been on the market for several years. I stopped using all the rest. Read the directions on the label,and it does do what it says it will do!! I use it in the oil,fuel stabilizer and as a very good top engine lubricant. It was originally designed for marine apps,and does get rid of moisture like no other I have ever used. Good luck Geoff with furthering your diagnoses.

Unknown

GEOFF , I'm gonna side with the soakem and give em a twist down by the spring/tappet guys That SEAFOAM stuff RON mentioned is good stuff . SEAFOAM is a brand , not a product , all their stuff is good . KROIL is a new one on me , never seen it in our local parts houses ,where do you get it ? Thanks to all on this and the other thread , HUDSON GUYS ARE THE BEST . BUD

[Deleted User]

You can google Kroil or type in http://www.kanolabs.com/ to view their web site and products in Nashville, Tennessee. I have been there and purchased a gallon for my own use. Bob

Unknown

"On my '33, I drove the car to a meet about four miles from my home. It set there all day, and when I went to start it up to drive it home, it was like there wasn't any pistons in the engine. The starter just wined and wined."





Oh crap. That sounds just like my problem. I guess I know where to look next

Unknown

bobdriveshudson wrote:

You can google Kroil or type in http://www.kanolabs.com/ to view their web site and products in Nashville, Tennessee. I have been there and purchased a gallon for my own use. Bob

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Thanks BOB , I looked over their site and I'm going to get some , They have a no risk trial offer I'm gonna take them up on . I see they make a lot of other products also . Might turn out like the TRI-SEAL I ran accross a few years ago , I brought some home and it's now a KEEP SOME ON THE SHELF item in everyone around here's shop . I put it in every gear box I have , anywhere there is oil of any kind . BUD

[Deleted User]

Well I googled TRI-SEAL and found 89 pages to look at. So how about telling us what it is and how used. Must be a fine product. Tell us about it. Thanks, Bob

Unknown

bobdriveshudson wrote:

Well I googled TRI-SEAL and found 89 pages to look at. So how about telling us what it is and how used. Must be a fine product. Tell us about it. Thanks, Bob

It's a lube additive to soften and or preserve seals used anywhere oil of any wght. is used . I had a power steering leak so bad it put out a stream almost as big as a pencil on my semi in Detroit , it stopped it well enough to make it to Salem, In., 30 mile from Louisville, Ky. Wheel/axle seals were a constantly replace item on the semis , I started useing it as preventive maintenance and never again replaced a wheel seal Try looking up HAPCO PRODUCTS CO.

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Box 26097 , Fraser , Mich. 48026 . Don't know if they sell on the net but any parts house that can order from anywhere they want to can get it . The guy I lined up on it now sells 2 cases a month , that's a bunch for "snake oil" products . Every wrench twister around here now keeps some on hand . BUD

Unknown

Some good info popped up on this thread but lets get back to helping Geoff with his AWOL POWER engine , it's his thread . The Kroil sounds like a good thing for him to use . BUD

Unknown

37 Terraplane#2 wrote:

Some good info popped up on this thread but lets get back to helping Geoff with his AWOL POWER engine , it's his thread . The Kroil sounds like a good thing for him to use . BUD

Ya, thanks guys. I've been reading your posts and I've ordered some AeroKroil. I am thinking now that I have stuck valves. Next week I am going to get at it. Appreciate all the help.

Unknown

Okay, there are stuck valves and there are STUCK valves!



Popped the head off after checking all else out once again. Guess what? Five of six cylinders had stuck valves. Sprayed Aerokroil on'm and three are coming back nicely. One is full of hope. The other, number 6 cyl, is a bugger. I'm letting it sit overnight.



Retired mechanic friend who lives next door said it happened because I had old gas ("dry gas") in it for a time and then used unleaded, so no lubrication. He recommends "top lube" with every tankful for flathead motors. Once I get this sorted, I am going to follow his suggestion.



Nice to see the innards of the old girl though. She's easy to work on, for sure.



Thanks to all who suggested Aerokroil and stuck valve idea. I never would have thought of it.