254 Inline 8 Aluminum Heads Question
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Who manufactured aluminum heads for the straight eight engines-Hudson or aftermarket company? Did they help the engine performance or hinder?
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Rarerodder wrote:
Get in touch with Ivan Zaremba at hetivanz62comcast.net drop the het He got an aluminum 8 cylinder head from England and it makes a big difference. The Hudson 8 is a great engine over there. Walt.Who manufactured aluminum heads for the straight eight engines-Hudson or aftermarket company? Did they help the engine performance or hinder?0 -
I have a factory aluminum head on my '50C8. The 8 was rated at 128 hp w/ cast iron head but 138 w/ the aluminum (factory) head. This was due to a bump in the compression ratio from 6.5 to 7 I believe. For aftermarket in the US Edmunds made a finned aluminum head, which is polished and beautiful, if you can find one.0
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the original alum. heads Hudson used were cast by Alcoa.0
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I sent an email to Edmonds yesterday after the posting and they told me that they could make a run of the 254 heads. They would need a head to use for a pattern but they are in the business of reproducing this type of equipment. They indicated that the advantage would be that the aluminum finned head would be 60% lighter, have an improved water jacket and because the head is finned they would provide better cooling. This would also increase the HP. He is sending me some information that I will make available as soon as it arrives.
The down side is that the first head would cost about $2,200. Each one produced after that would decrease the cost. I expect that it would take around a dozen orders to make it anywhere reasonable....0 -
I thought Edmonds (or is it Edmunds?) was long since defunct. I'll bet there'd be a lot more demand for a repop of the 6 cyl. head than the 8- I'd sure like one for my old-timey street rod. Could you hit them up on the 6 as well?0
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Thanks for the info. I have a factory head as it says POWER DOME and Alcoa on it.
Another question I should have asked are what are the downsides anyone has experienced with the aluminum heads such as seals, etc.?0 -
Mike (WA) wrote:I thought Edmonds (or is it Edmunds?) was long since defunct. I'll bet there'd be a lot more demand for a repop of the 6 cyl. head than the 8- I'd sure like one for my old-timey street rod. Could you hit them up on the 6 as well?
I asked them that as well and they said no problem. I would think a finned aluminum head for a 6 would be a real moneymaker. Good rebuildable heads are almost impossible to find. All they need is a good head to make a mold from and a few orders to make it pay for them...0 -
OK is the "new" Edmunds thing a joke or what. I have seen that vintagespeed.com does a few repro things but not aware they were making heads and such?0
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Dan,
They are sending me some advertisements of what they do and some prices. They tell me that this is their market nich so I expect that they are out there hustling business. I'll update this data the first of the week when the stuff they send me gets here.
Brownie0 -
I'm confused. I thought Edmunds had been out of business for decades. Empire Motors in Texas could probably make a decent repro, but I am sure it would be pricey. I am looking forward to hearing the news you have to report0
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Brownie does Edmunds have a website we can check out? I am surprised that they have not been actively advertising in Hemmings or the like? The original Edmunds was bought out by the Aaron Fenton, the same guy that started Mr. Gasket. I believe that was in the late 50s. He basically bought it and shut it down, not sure what the motivation behind it was.
For more info you can go here:
http://eddie-edmunds.blogspot.com/0 -
OK guys, here is the data that they sent to me in the mail. The guy that I spoke with is R. Perriguey. He is the President of Empire Motors Inc. They specialize in hard to find cylinder heads, exhaust/intake manifolds, and blocks. One of the photos shows an Edmunds/Packard 1935-1947 inline 6 finned aluminum head. They do in-line 4, 6, 8's, V-8, V-12 and V-16's. The data that they sent to me has photos of various aluminum heads that they have built. They are manufactured to OEM Specs. Their address is:
EMPIRE MOTORS INC.
13451 Montana Ave.
El Paso, Texas 79938-9616
Ph No 915-856-9607
Fax No. 916-856-9637
www.empiremotorsinc.com
Info@empiremotorsinc.com
They told me that they would need a clean head to make their molds from and that the first order would include the price of the mold. They did not say, but I would expect that if we put togeather an order that included ten heads (six or eight would not matter-they do finned or plane but I would expect that it would be most reasonable to do a finned head) the cost per item would be worth the order. I would expect that with all the stepdowns running around out there and the fact that a lot of parts are becomming hard to find that this would be a reasonable way to go.0 -
a friend of mine has 3 --- factory 8 cyl aluminum heads that need work, one a spark plug hole stripped threads ---2 have cracks . at the moment not sure where { can find out } or if repairable . They may be for sale . BUD0
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I am bewiltered with this post. When I was building my 52 I would have jumped on this information like a duck on a June bug. I finned brand new aluminum head would have looked great on my racing car. With the initial interest in this post I thought it would have created a list of folks who wanted to sign up for one of these heads for their 262/308. With the problems with finding a good head becoming impossible, I would have thought that we would soon be seeing these heads available at somewhere like KGap. Oh well, I expect, like me, no one needs one right now? If the engine on English Hudson had not been recently rebuilt I would be ordering one right now....0
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Well, I'll start the ball rolling. I'll buy one, if we can sign up enough folks to get price down to $500.0
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I would be interested in a finned head for a Hornet, but would like to know what the actual cost would be. Also, who is going to turn over their original Edmunds head for the mold? That might be the most difficult part of the process. It sounds like a great idea though. I suspect that if there was a big enough market for these types of parts, Clifford would still be making many of the things they did 30 years ago.0
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Ken U-Tx wrote:Be careful of this Empire Motors in El Paso, I suspect it is the latest incarnation of the old MFT manufacturing, which has been the subject of lawsuits. I would do some careful research before sending any good original parts, and /or money to these people. Regards, Kenneth
A little web searching does show them to be the same folks . Other than what Ken says I have no knowledge of them . BUD0 -
I agree with KenU on the credentials of this outfit. We looked at getting high compression heads made for the early Super 6 ('16-'26), and were assured that they could be done. However it was "money-up-front" and apparently the heads were to be manufactured in Mexico. We decided not to proceed. I also would advise caution.0
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Guys I turned up some really bad news on Empire from one of their customers ,. DON'T GO THERE !! Don't know how to post Can forward by email to anyone that wants to see or post it . BUD HOLMESVIOLINS@INSIGHTBB.COM0
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Browniepetersen wrote:
They told me that they would need a clean head to make their molds from..........
That made me raise a mental eyebrow.
You do need an original of some sort to take measurements from in order to make the moulds but any sort of intact head will suffice for that purpose. In fact, a tatty unserviceable head will be better because then you can section it without qualms to look at the internal details, water passages etc.
One of the main considerations in casting metal, especially aluminium, is the shrinkage that occurs when the liquid metal sets. Because of that shrinkage, your moulds need to be larger than the item you want to end up with. In the case of a 2 foot long cylinder head and max 2% shrinkage, your mould needs to be 1/2" longer than the head.
Now you could save yourself a fair bit of time and money in patternmaking by bogging 1/4" plywood onto each end of a good head and using that as a mould. This will sort of work if you are only concerned with the head ending up the right length, but everything else will be wrong. For starters, combustion chambers #1 and #8 will be 1/2" closer together than they should be, they won't line up with their cylinders.
I could be going in the wrong direction here with what the makers intentions are, but if I was doing this job, a good head would be unnecessary. A crappy head would be fine for the purpose, and of course, the loan of an 8 cylinder block to make sure the head bolt holes end up in the right places.0 -
37 Terraplane#2 wrote:Guys I turned up some really bad news on Empire from one of their customers ,. DON'T GO THERE !! Don't know how to post Can forward by email to anyone that wants to see or post it . BUD HOLMESVIOLINS@INSIGHTBB.COM
I got a nice note from Bud and this is the email that he is talking about. This is a source that we might want to check into:
Yes, and it was all bad. Came close to losing all the money I had paid them up front. They held my parts, that I had sent them to use at patterns, for ransom. I had to pay the postman several hundred dollars cash ( wasn't allowed to pay by check/money order as that could have been traced) before he was authorized to give my parts to me. I have had emails and phone calls from several collectors that have lost thousands of dollars with this company.
They changed the name from MFT/USA and a man named Valdor Blazor was the head of the company. I ended up getting a lawyer and the president of a world wide Chrysler club that I belong to, sent him a message. It was a several years long nightmare.
Please look for another company to help you with castings. I will help you find a place. Contact D&D Classic Auto Restoration in Covington, Ohio, they can get parts made for you--ask for Roger James. They have a web site.
Where are you located? What make of car?
I 'd be happy to help you.
Tim Wolfe0 -
Haveing worked in a foundry many years ago as a kid I know that what BOB says is correct . Many factors come into play in makeing a mold , especially for something that must match something else . What the Wolfes say must certainly be true or they would find themslves in some very deep legal trouble and Empire would soon be the owners of everything they had . HET member Glenn Reeves from Richmond In is only about 50 mile from D+D , might be he would check them out for us or may allready know about them . BUD0
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I have talked with Mr. Perriguey a few times and helped him get to the Forum because he had an interest in what coments were being made. With some of the negative comments that were made I thought for sure that he would never communicate with me again. I must say that with the discussions that I have had with him he comes off as a really nice guy that is just trying to do the best job that he can with what he knows best. He understands that some folks might have had some difficult dealings with people associated with his company before he bought it. Today he seems willing to work with car guys to get them what they need at a fair price. He has looked at the six cyl Hudson Head and honestly believes that he can improve them and make them for us. In a note he sent me today he addressed a few quesitons and emails that he has recieved. I thought I would share them with the Forum.
Brownie,
Mr. Perriguey's comments...
For the Record, EMI, Does not do any mfg. or purchase Cylinder Head Castings in Mexico.
All cylinder head are mfg'ed by EMI, are made in the United States, in Cast Iron 35/40 or Air craft, Aluminum, alloy 356-T6.
We use original cylinder heads for all over size and shap only, We mfg. new Produciton Patterns and Core Boxes to a Shrink factor 5/32" per foot for each head, for Aluminum, for Iron 1/8" per foot, We have not done any business with Mr. Wolf, EMI Stands by it Self, no affiliations.
Some of the items, We have shipped New Mfg'ed Aluminum,Graham Head 1937, to New Zealand and a Studeaker 1921, to Austrial, Lincoln K-Heads and Cords to Spain,Packard V-12's, that was in the Detroit auto Show 2010, All now on running cars.
If the propective customers have any questions they can E-Mail EMI, direct and have there questions answered.
R.A. Perriguey/Pr.
Empire Motors, Inc.
13451 Montana Ave,
El Paso, Tx. 79938 USA
E-Mail info@empiremotorsinc.comn
Ph. No. 915 856-96070 -
Given the size of the potential market (compared to Grahams, Cords and Lincolns), maybe he could be convinced to do the project himself, "on spec", as they say in the building business. Eddie Edmunds did it in the '50's, with vastly inferior technology.
If he really could produce a superior finned aluminum alloy head, in the $500 range, I'll bet he'd sell a bunch of them, since Cliffords seem reluctant to do anything anymore. Throw in a 3 carb manifold as well. I'm game.0 -
Browniepetersen wrote:I got a nice note from Bud and this is the email that he is talking about. This is a source that we might want to check into:
Yes, and it was all bad. Came close to losing all the money I had paid them up front. They held my parts, that I had sent them to use at patterns, for ransom. I had to pay the postman several hundred dollars cash ( wasn't allowed to pay by check/money order as that could have been traced) before he was authorized to give my parts to me. I have had emails and phone calls from several collectors that have lost thousands of dollars with this company.
They changed the name from MFT/USA and a man named Valdor Blazor was the head of the company. I ended up getting a lawyer and the president of a world wide Chrysler club that I belong to, sent him a message. It was a several years long nightmare.
Please look for another company to help you with castings. I will help you find a place. Contact D&D Classic Auto Restoration in Covington, Ohio, they can get parts made for you--ask for Roger James. They have a web site.
Where are you located? What make of car?
I 'd be happy to help you.
Tim Wolfe
Got this note today from Empire Motors. Thought it might be worth while to clear the air a bit?
In referance to Tim Wolf, May 26, 2006, Empire Motors, Inc. did not receive a Purchase Order or Payment for work Performed, for the 1930 Chrysler, Model 70, Manifolds/Compontents, from Tim Wolf, but was completed at No Charge, as a Courtesy, the workmen ship was vary high quality, we spent serval thousand dollars of EMI, Money, and No Profit. He, Only Paid for Shipping & Handing, (fairly Heavy Items), Boxed/Ohio, S & H Collect $175 dollars. Signature Coinfirmation, Freight Bill No.M-459463621.
We never received a letter of thank you, for our efforts, looking back, he wanted us to pay him, he wanted every thing, for free, and if he did not get it for free , he stated he would drag EMI, Name thru the dirt. Keep in mind this is all over $175 S & H. that he did not want to pay.
R.A. Perriguey/Pr.
Empire Motors, Inc.
13451 Montana Ave,
El Paso, Tx. 79938 USA
Ph. No. 915 856-9607
Fax No. 915 856-9637
E-Mail info@empiremotorsinc.comn
www.empiremotorsinc.com
Brownie Petersen0 -
BOY AM I EVER CONFUSED !!! I don't understand TIM WOLF saying what he did if Empire did all that for him , nor the audacity of anyone makeing that sort of demand and threats . Neither do I understand Empire doing all that because of a threat as said when they could have taken legal action against TIM . I'm neither condeming or supporting either party in the actions stated . Too many things from both just don't add up to me . I'm oughta this one and really wish I had never passed on what was given me , was only trying to let guys be aware of what could be a bad deal . Maybe Empire can redeem themself by doing some good work for Brownie , would hope that's the way it is when the mud has dried . ---- BUD0
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I sent the company link to a person having some Studebaker grill surrounds made up. Here is his note back to me ---A friend of mine had a bad experience with these people. Although they do do excellent work, if your project falls between the cracks, they won't step up to the plate to help you out. My friend had to threaten to sue them in order to get them to finish a project they had started for her.0
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I've just received the following unsolicited email from Empire Motors promoting their aluminium cylinder head business.
I can only assume they have been mining members profiles for email addresses, an activity that does not create within me a feeling of warmth towards the company. Anyone else get an email? And they can't spell Hudson, or get their own email address right for that matter.
COPY & PASTE
"Subject: Huldson, Cylinder Heads and Intake Manifolds
Dear Bob,
We mfg. about 60, H/C Aluminum Cylinder Heads, they are all made and Mfg'ed in the United States, to OEM Spec. to Order. Vary high end quality. Do you have some questions on our mfg. process, do you need a cylinder head?
Please advise,
R.A. Perriguey/Pr.
Empire Motors, Inc.
13451 Montana Ave,
El Paso, Tx. 79938 USA
Ph. No. 915 856-9607
Fax No. 915 856-9637
E-Mail info@empiremotorsinc.comn
www.empiremotorsinc.com"0 -
I too have had a personal email, using very bad spelling, telling me they will make a new alloy hi-com head for a '26 Hudson and assuring me it will not be made in Mexico. Can anyone actually check these guys out physically - there must be someone in the area can visit their foundry.0
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Geoff, Another local hudson owner and myself had a visit at the local Plant the other day and it is the most Professinal plant with all of the latest Machinery to do all kinds of machining. We met the 2 pattern makers and they do a beatfull job. Everything but the casting is done here and Not in Mexico,the casting only is made in Calf.U.S.A.
They will start on a Hudson project for all of the local Hudson owners and when it it finished then and only then we will show the finished parts on the forom. We can check the progress as the steps are performed.
Hudsonly Rudy and the locals
(some af the spelling may not be correct as i only have a 7th education)0
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