Stepdown starter woes

GrimGreaser

So... Anyone have the cast nose for a stepdown starter w/ a hydromatic? Or a spare hydro starter already converted to 12V? Or a spare set of 12V field coils? Wilson says they're still available, but I'll be damned if any part house around here will spend any time past "it ain't in the computer, sorry" to find them.

I have a couple more local leads to follow... I mostly needed to vent here... Crappy week last week and this just piles on top of it. Grrr.

Ol racer

FYI
Ive been lucky I guess using 12V with 6V Hydro starters for quite awhile with no problem. However because Hydro starters are so heavy I looked around for a lighter alternative for my drag Hudson. I learned Hudson ring gears are the same pitch as Mopar Ring Gears.

I adapted a much lighter used double reduction Mopar 318" starter for $35 to my Race motor. It worked out so well on the racer mtr I made another for my St Rod by sawing off the nose cone exposing the gear then torch cutting a 1/4 plate (collar), slid it over the rear of starter bolting with the motor bolts. The drawback, It required fitting to mtr on the floor to set ring gear 'clearance'. I posted the procedure on the Forum back a few yrs ago.

'Just an Idea' if someone is handy and had a laser cutter for the 'collar' the Mopar starter conversion would be simple alternative.

GrimGreaser

Really? I asked about a year ago about a modern starter for a 308 with a hydro, but didn't get an answer. Could anyone give me more info on these? Off-the-shelf or are these somewhat custom?

I must say though, my Dad did a hell of a job welding the nose back together the last time, the weld held like a champ. The rest... not so much. New bushings all around when I put it back together, but I've had cold start issues which have required lots of cranking. I guess I just whacked it just right tonight.

GrimGreaser

Ol Racer, could you please give me more info on this? If I understand you right, you made a plate to fit between the engine and trans? I'm hoping to avoid that extreme (hopeing for bolt-in)... but the tranny's gotta come out soon or later to fix the front seal leak I suppose...

Ol racer

No,
I bought the used Mopar starter nose cone then torch cut a 'ring collar' from 1/4" piece of steel from Lowes, trimmed & filed the starter motor 'flat' then slid the ring around the back of starter fitting flush to starter then drilled & tapped the Collar" for the Motor bolts. (I think I got litte longer bolts). I did everything with hacksaw, file, die groinder, & torch in couple hrs. I did need to elongate the two starter holes on the 'collar' to swivel starter in/out to contsct the ring gear correctly using a paper clip for gsuge. Once bolts tight keeps correct engagement. I did nothing to Transmission Plate between Motor. Might ne able to use those original Studs by elongating the'Collar Holes to swivel.The starter drive engages out the same distance as the Hudson starter if you file around starter for collsr fit 'flush.I measured 3 places to ensure Collar is flucsh and concentric with Mtr plate. I have a pattern for the Ring if interested.When cranks sounds like a Mopar...Lastly, To help quickly suggest gouing to your local Alt, Gen, and Starter Rebuild Shop, Not Auto Zone or like, They may have a nose cone to fit from early Olds or Pontiac back in '50's laying in a wash tub odf starterv parts.

GrimGreaser

Ol Racer, do you have more pictures? I looked up the old thread, I don't suppose you have a dimensioned draw ing of your template? If you have good dimensions I can work up a CAD sheet to share on here and to have for laser/water jet cutters to use.

Thanks! This is just what I was looking for.

I'm still interested in any bolt in options I can get locally and quickly. Would like to have the Hornet running to show off to the family this weekend.

[Deleted User]

I have several starters that you can have cheap, one is a 12v that needs the shroud replaced with the old style. The only problem is they cost a lot to ship, if they fit in the prioity mail box, will cost less than $15 to ship. Let me know, either pm or e-mail HETjeblakeley@globalserve.net and I will take pictures.

Marconi

You Might check with Dany Spring @ K-Gap, looks like the same starter setup he uses!

Ol racer

Hello,
The starter Post that I outlined step by step must not have uploaded when the new System updated about a yr ago. I seen Alerts to save your Posts but had no inquiries so didnt bother.
I have nade a few Mopar conversions and had no problems making from org pattern. (attached but not to scale because of 97kb limit).
I sawed off the nose cone 6 1/8" from the front of starter motor. I had to use a 1/4" spacer when using Dany Spring's Trans Adaptor. The motor has to be flat for the face of the 'collar'. The only obstical is a dowel protruding that requires tediously filing around it so collar fits flush. The Collar has a hole for the dowel.
If want the dimension I can measure from the pattern. The first starter I adapted I added a et screw concerend it may spin but subsequent conversions I trimmed the 'collar' and did away with set screw.
If you have acess to computerized programing would simplyfy.

GrimGreaser

I DID find the old post, I was just wondering if you had more pictures of the plate mounted to the starter. I have taken your template posted previously and did my best to pull dimensions off of it. I have attached that below as a 1:1 drawing (.pdf). Let me know how that matches up to your template.

The outline of the adapter is simplified since I'm concerned with hole dimensions at this point.

Ol racer

GrimGreaser,
Good work locating the original Post. Your Drawings are excellent but perhaps its the way I printed them, they differ from my pattern. If you tell me the Format I can copy and attach, or I could US Mail a pattern if you Pm your address.The starter motor is not perfectly round wher the collar plate goes. The crude plates that I made work well and actually spin my drag mtr with a 16V race Battery with no problem....

Actually, I should clarify there are two cuts, one to remove the nose and the other is trim the starter 'housing' for the 'collar'. The key is to fit collar tight and parallel to the bell housing. If cut too much the starter will need shimmed, if too little gear wont engage enough.6 1/8" puts the gear in practically same teeth wear marks as Hudson starter. Incidently, Mopar Drag guys told me they saw off the nose too for some applications but dont recall the reason. Its more of a cover than support for the shaft.

If you can take this backyard idea to the next level would be great. Im considering using an aluminum plate,disembling the starter, then mig to the housing.. Attached' is a picture of the first one I made going into a Hydro flywheel. I opened the Hudson Trans plate hole thinking I needed more room but learned later wasnt necessary. I used bolts in place of studs and feel stock studs will work if locked in place. I will be away for the Holiday and appreciate your interested.

GrimGreaser

When I got dimensions of your template, I used the original mounting hole spacing, 4.5 inches, to scale the rest which might throw things off a bit.

UPDATE: When printing make sure print scaling is off or print scaling is 100% otherwise everything will be off.

I have a pretty good idea where to go now. As soon as I have my hands on an actual starter I can refine everything. I just needed a good solid start, hopefully I can get a used one cheap around here. Thanks again!

Ol racer

FYI
Look in Yards that have '80's - early'90's wrecks from ANY 318 motor with the small starter. (not quite a mini). Ive bought 3 for # 30 - $35 each and needed no repair... Take a picture because they made a change during later Yrs.Good Luck

[Deleted User]

Can you post the name and part number and year and model Dodge for the Denso Mopar starter? This way the owners can get the correct starter and go from there. I have received a lot calls and mails asking me what I used, 1950 ford small block, but had to do a lot of machining, drilling and taping to make the adapter plate fit, also had to change starter drive to a 9 tooth 10 pitch to work on the hudson flywheel. Walt.

Ol racer

FYI
The Mopar Denso Starter I began with fits all the Mopar engines from '65 - '87 (225, 273, 318, 340 and larger). I modified using only a hacksaw, drill, and die grinder using a small 1/4" piece of steel for a collar to mount the starter.The Gear interchanges with Hudson ring gear.I bought the starters used so have no part # but I seen a few on EBay now. One pictured is Item #150718681839. Hope this helps.

GrimGreaser

I finished mine a week or so ago and have been making sure there are no gremlins. Mine came out of a 94 Dodge Dakota with a 318ci V8. 10 tooth but same pitch. It should look something like this:



I'll have some pictures up later.

Park_W

Greaser, if all else fails you can send your original starter to Ken Warner at Classic Generators in TX (kennethw@classicgenerator.com). He'll install 12v windings for you. You indicated there was no shop around that was willing to search. The 12v windings for an auto-trans Hornet (MCH-6204 starter) are "Ace" nr. ST-33-X 12V. Maybe with that info a local shop could find them.

For others interested, I believe both Ken Cates' and Dave Sollon's web sites have the full list of correct 12v windings for any Hudson starter from 1941 on.

[Deleted User]

Park W wrote:

Greaser, if all else fails you can send your original starter to Ken Warner at Classic Generators in TX (kennethw@classicgenerator.com). He'll install 12v windings for you. You indicated there was no shop around that was willing to search. The 12v windings for an auto-trans Hornet (MCH-6204 starter) are "Ace" nr. ST-33-X 12V. Maybe with that info a local shop could find them.

For others interested, I believe both Ken Cates' and Dave Sollon's web sites have the full list of correct 12v windings for any Hudson starter from 1941 on.

As Park stated, I have the part numbers for the correct field coils to be used to convert a Hudson 6 volt starter to 12 volts. Recently I purchased two different field coils from Ken Warner to convert two different Hudson starters. The conversions were pretty much painless and the converted starters worked perfectly.

If anyone needs these part numbers PM me.

Merry Christmas - K Cates

GrimGreaser

I'm done with Bendix starters. My Dodge/Denso unit has been working great this last week. I have several cold-start gremlins , requiring a bit more cranking than usual. It's really frustrating to have the starter kick out at the first catch without actually starting. Now I can crank through all the false starts and clear any flooding that happens. And I did find a rebuilder that could probably get the coils for me, but by then I found Ol Racers post.

GrimGreaser

Pictures:

Park_W

Greaser, I'm glad you've found and publicized a good altenate solution. On the original starters, the starter shops can install a "latching" Bendix unit that doesn't retract when you release the starter button and the starter spins down. It doesn't kick out unless the engine actually starts, so you don't have the repeated slamming into the flywheel that you do with the original.

DocHornet

I recently converted my '51 Hornet from Hydramatic to standard tranny w/OD. This entailed using the starter from the donor car, so I do have the starter that matched the Hydra...

My car was already converted to 12V prior to my purchase, and the starter performed excellently, so either it was converted to 12V, or it's not an issue.

(I'm using the 6V starter from the donor car, and it seems quite happy with 12 volts... doing the same thing on my '40 Cadillac which I also converted to 12 volt system)

I'd let this starter go for a reasonable offer... it's very clean and ready to install...
Phil Auldridge
phil@auldridge.org 512 517-0055 Austin

Ol racer

Grim Greaser,

Great Job converting the Mopar Denso starter for the Hudson Motor... I liked the pictures.....

[Deleted User]

Is that a 10 tooth drive? Hudson ring gear is set for 9 tooth, 10 pitch. A 10 tooth will ruin the teeth on the flywheel. Walt.

GrimGreaser

Both pinions have the same tooth profile (pitch ect...). Tooth number doesn't matter as long as they mesh properly. Driven gear speed will change when pinion tooth number is changed but pinion rpm remains the same.

[Deleted User]

My local starter / Generator guy a Packard man himself. Will reconfigure your
6-Volt starter to 9 volts I belive it is. And this allows you to use it on a 12 -Volt system and get good power out of it . Yet it wont "WANG" in so hard it destroys itself .I dont see why any good starter guy wont do the same if you ask.

I remember a sad Hornet owner at the central region meet in Rockford ill. Walking throgh the swap meet area holding half a starter. His nose cone had broken clean off his 308 Hydromatic .He was lucky and found one so he could get home,
Roger

Kdancy

[Deleted User]

Give it time and you will be installing a new ring gear. Walt

GrimGreaser

Working great Walt, no abnormal wear on the new pinion, engages and disengages just fine and sounds just like it should when cranking. Flywheel looks fine, and its seen a whole lot of cranking this last week.

BillUSN1

Doing a search for a more modern starter and came across this old post.
Is there any updates or maybe racer or Grim can add the files and pics back in?

Has anyone else come up with a 12v starter option I didn't find in the search?

GrimGreaser

Haven't had a chance to get good models and drawing made for my setup yet. But I can take some more pictures.