Interest for 32/33 T-plane 6/8 "new" water pumps?

53jetman

Yes, I would be interested in one for my Model K. You might consider looking into have the casting machined to accept a shaft, bushing and seal like the more modern pumps on the stepdowns - then we could use the metal pulley that was used on those pumps.

faustmb

I finished completely disassembling the pump tonight. The brass piece I was worried about is actually much simpler than I thought, basically a bushing pressed inside of a pipe nipple with a special cap. All simple parts, that said, I'm thinking along the lines of Rogers comment.

Any ideas of what an improved pump seal would be? At this point, I feel very good about duplicating an OE pump. Making improvements is pretty straightforward if it can fit in the same space.

I hope to have casting costs this month, and hopefully machined pulley costs too.

Matt

faustmb

I'll try to add pics via my phone

Overview



Homemade tool, thanks to Buzz Stahl for the tips;



Pulleys, steel vs aluminum

53jetman

Sorry to report that your pictures didn't make it. Just a basic "Photo Bucket" web page.

faustmb

One more photo that may be of interest, using the tool to push the shaft out. I used the same tool with a combination of spacers and washers to push out all of the bushings. Very smooth and safe...

Disregard the other junk on my bench

faustmb

"Yes, I would be interested in one for my Model K. You might consider looking into have the casting machined to accept a shaft, bushing and seal like the more modern pumps on the stepdowns - then we could use the metal pulley that was used on those pumps."

I have some used stepdown pumps, I guess I need to pull one apart. I think the only way to use the later pulley is to shorten the housing. To do that, you would need to drastically increase the rear bearing so that only one is needed- I think. Good thought, I'll have investigate a bit further. I've got some NOS stepdown impellers, I was hoping to recycle those but it doesn't look promising so far.

terraplane8

It would be good to stay with the original pulley design and material IMO. It's quite unique looking piece, designed to be light with little inertia.

Surely these days a very good cast-iron material can be used that will be more durable than the original?

Terraplane33

Excellent job Faustmb !
:x

faustmb

Still waiting on the casting quote, the shop has been backed up for months but I'm losing some faith in them.

I did get a CNC machined steel pulley quote today of $165.00 ea. That seems reasonable to me based on the amount of steel cutting involved. It's a friend with a small shop, he'll measure and program based on the OE pulley I have. I afraid cast ones will cost more than that once they are machined are ready to use.

I also noted that there is no way to lubricate the original bushings on either of my original pumps. Does anyone know what was recommended for pump maintenance?

Courtesy Man

With the pump on the workbench is the hole shown in the photo threaded for a zerk fitting ??
Perhaps also a packing - looks like a fat washer. The grease for the zerk would have been a water soluable type if I recall. The original shaft was probably mild steel and would rust and damage the shaft and bushings as well as leaking badly. If I can help with some machining let me know - Gert Kristiansen HETgtkristi@copper.net (drop the HET).

Courtesy Man

Oops forgot to say that stainless steel for the pump shaft holds up better.

faustmb

I have stainless precision shaft lined up, I think it will hold up much better than the original. Someone added that tapped hole for some type of bleeder, I didn't find any other tapped holes. There is a thru hole by the inner bearing, but I think that is a weep hole?

[Deleted User]

Greetings
I have a 1933 Essex Terraplane here in Australia and share your frustrations with the water pump problems. I spent quite some time looking into alternate water pumps from other manufacturers say a 1929 Chev as they are the closest looking and have new modern type seals but that all fell in a heap as the Terraplane water pumps are mounted on the head and discharge through the outlet pipe on the pump to the top radiator hose. The majority of water pumps made do the opposite and all I could find were Ford 4 and 8 cylinder water pumps from 1932 but it looks like the 4 cylinder type is too long and the 8 cylinder is not strong enough to support a fan. Any suggestions would be welcomed but I gather if there was one then we would know by now.
The photos here I believe show a 1934 Terraplane water pump housing with an unknown drive pullie that has been modified previously. I like you all would love to have an original type water pump with modern seals so we don’t have to put grease in our engines.
I would be interested in finding where the new pump is up to and also putting my name down for a pump or two.

faustmb

The water pump project stalled out with the casting house. They were too busy and never quoted after many missed deadlines. The few other shops I have approached were not interested in the small order either. Meanwhile, I took on the disk brake project, an IH Travelall project, a full kitchen remodel, and a few other things.

The project is just delayed however, as my Terraplane engine is being rebuilt now so I will need to have my pump back together shortly. I will update this thread when I get back on the project. Meanwhile, if you need any stock pulley dimensions i can get them. Also, I can get CNC machined pulleys in the $150 USD range, they should be stronger that the original castings, in steel or aluminum.

[Deleted User]

Sorry for the delay, I’ll get back to you on the billet pulley. Do you or anyone have the dimensions for the centre line of the pulley where the belt runs to the base of the pump that bolts on to the head as what I have is in pieces and don't have a starting point to remanufacture a pump. I'm thinking that a lip seal and needle roller could probably be machined into the original water pump housings and the lip seal should be ok as the system is not pressurised. Also I have three good housings but have noticed that two of them have large outlets say inch and a half versus inch and a quarter for the one that matches my top radiator pipe inlet; is the larger housings for the 1934 model?

faustmb

I will check the pulley measurement, but it will take a few days for me to get to it out and re-assemble. I will also comare hose outlets, as I have a 34 pump also (longer housing). PM with a direct email address when you can. HETorphanautomill@gmail.com, drop the HET. ,

Matt

bob ward

One possibility for obtaining the cast pump housings is to join alloyavenue.com and post your requirements there. Alloyavenue is a web site for amateur metal and casters, there is a vast range of talent there, someone on there may be interested in a low volume project. If you can tolerate the housings being made in aluminium rather than cast iron that will increase the number of likely suppliers.

Terraplane33

I was thinking about buying a garden pump and adapt the housing (machining required of course), add a new flange with seal, bearings, shaft, impeller etc...

http://www.leboncoin.fr/jardinage/324917801.htm?ca=19_s

http://www.leboncoin.fr/materiel_professionnel/402258034.htm?ca=19_s

as far as I've seen and mesured (second one), it seems feasible...

faustmb

T33- sounds feasible. I will get back to this project too.

faustmb

Hansruedi,

Thanks for posting. Your car looks great! Thank you for sharing the information about the changes you made to improve cooling. I have heard others mention using later impellers with more fins for increased flow as well.

I did get another lead about casting the housing with the Amish. I need to pursue this as if sounds like a good match.

Matt

faustmb

Just a brief update, I haven't had any luck with casting firms. At the national however, I spoke with Charlie Ackley (sp?) who is also pursuing this project and has a casting house already looking at it. I have offered him samples if he needs them.

Meanwhile, I have sourced SS shaft, oil lite bushings, and improved packing material to freshen my pump up. Hopefully I can assemble and test within the next few weeks.

StillOutThere

Charlie Ackel? Former So Cal HET guy who moved up north and got very heavily into AMC and parts sales? If so, tell him Howdy from Wayne G. Well that covers about the last 40 years......

faustmb

That must be him. He rebuilds lots of waterpumps and reproduces many parts, so this project is right up his alley.

Matt

faustmb

I have a machinist friend who is making me a couple new water pump shafts out of precision stainless. He is also making a couple sets of oil-lite bushings. I am short one impeller, so he is also going to duplicate the impeller from aluminum so that I can complete the second pump. I'm not sure how I want to attach the impeller. I think it was pressed and brazed from the factory.

After this excercise only the housing / pulley casting will be left to tackle.

On my original castings, one has a threaded hole for an oiler and one does not. I am thinking of installing grease zerks instead. Thoughts on this?

I also had another thought. The housing on the right is a 34 or 35. It is an improved design , with ribs added for strength and a longer bushing area on the pulley side. Also the neck is larger which requires a larger hose. If this were duplicated for the "new" pumps, they could cover a larger span of years with extra machine to cover 33s.

faustmb

Update- pump is at the machine shop who is making new shafts, bushings, and impellers.

Question - Do / should these be align bored after assembly? I was thinking not, but the shop is pretty insistent that they must be align bored. Were they bored at the factory?

bob ward

If I was doing that job I would want to bore or ream after assembly to make sure everything was dead straight.

Did the factory bore after assembly? Hard to know but possibly they did. If they were doing a production run of pumps and had all the jigs etc to set them up on, an alignment bore would have been a very quick operation.

Geoff

The replacement kits for the later pumps are precision bored and do not need line reaming but in your case there maybe some shrinkage when you press the bushings in, so I agree with Bob, it should be checked for clearance and free spinning. If tight, then line boring would be advisable.

faustmb

Thanks guys. I'll let you know how it goes.

[Deleted User]

The only thing to consider with the 34/35 pump is the overall lenth. The 34/5 pump pulley groove is further forward and I believe the shaft diameter is larger also. I rebuilding a 33t pump with a nors kit and when I went to put the pulley on the shaft was too small diameter for the old pulley. I can only guess that a 34/5 kit had been installed at some time and the pulley was drilled out to fit the larger shaft. Had to find another 33 pulley to finish the job.

faustmb

So here's some progress on the "new" side of things. Here's the 3D rendering for a new 33 pulley, a machinable version of the OE one. I'm excited to see the real thing, coming soon