Pierre from France (Hudson 49) needs help! Transmission problem.

54SuperWasp

Hi Guys, this is Michel ( 54Superwasp) and I'm writing on behalf of our forum friend Pierre from France who sent me an e-mail in French and asking me to translate it in English. I hope you will be able to understand the problem:
Pierre;
''I’ve just put back the motor/transmission unit in the car. But I have a transmission problem , even with a new clutch and a new clutch bearing.
I can’t turn the driveshaft by hand, even in neutral.

I ‘ve noticed also that the clutch pedal is soft, and by the same time noticed too that the clutch bearing does not push the ‘’3 fingers’’ on the spring, and so, there is no spring response and, once pushed forward, the clutch bearing does not come back…

So, I took apart the transmisson, and noticed that, when I put the mecanism in place with the disk on the flywheel, the ‘’3 fingers’’ are on a great tension towards the clutch bearing ( and I presume this is normal) but the problem is that, when I begin to tight all the bolts of the mecanism, now, the fingers expand completely and I think this is not normal. Following that, there is a lack of pressure of the clutch bearing on the disk…''

Here are the pictures he sent me if it can help.

Pierre sent also a little video , I hope you will be able to see it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BoOvRiaLgNo

Thanks everybody. I will follow this thread and send him all the translation needed.

Michel

SuperDave

Hi Michel, Hope this helps
If you used a new cork disc, it's very possible that the disc is too thick. I don't recall the maximum thickness, but it's in the mechanical proceedure manual. Maybe 1/4"? When the assembly is all tightened ready to install the throwout bearing. the three fingers should measure 1-1/4" to 1-1/2" from the top of the round hole that holds the throwout bearing. if it measures more than 1- 1/2" the throwout will not release the clutch. a good description in the 48-49 mechnical procxcedure manual. I recently had the same problem with my 49 and found that useing two gaskets gave me 1-3/8" which is perfect. There are other things to check but I bet your disc is a bit too thick. It's cerrtainly not fun to have to do it over again! I know from experience. It's happend to me twice in the last thirty some years. You would think I would Learn TO CHECK IT BEFORE ASSEMBLY.. Good Luck!
Dave W. Florida

Geoff

I agree, the plate is too thick. The correct thickness overall of the plate is .1875" for a heat treated cork disc. The gasket should be 1/32" thick also.

54SuperWasp

Wow guys, you are very fast! I wrote this thread not even 1 hour ago! Since it's 2:00am in France, ( 6 hours difference from Eastern Standard time in US and Canada) I will have time to translate the answers to him. Thank you very much again Dave and Geoff. I'm sure he will be happy! Michel

Jon B

Awaken him! Hudsons are much more important than sleep!

54SuperWasp

Oh John, I was just completing the translation when I happened to see your comment. I laughed so much. I will add it to his e-mail. I am so proud of our Hudson community! Michel

[Deleted User]

Hello guys
I woke up lol and really very pleased with your answers fast, thanks to all for your help. ......And promised, I sleep more as long as the Hudson will not be... mdr

hudsontech

If you need a shop manual, Pierre, there's one in the online library (link below my signature. Look in 1948-1954 manuals.

Hudsonly,
Alex Burr
Memphis, TN

drdoug

Pierre. The first thing to check is the pressure plate. Since you have already removed the transmission,check the finger heights. These can be NO MORE than .030 variation from one another-[a total of no more than .030] The clutch disc can be .225 and work just fine-IF the pressure plate is set-up correctly. I don't know where the .01875 comes from. the shop manual even describes over .200. When you use 2 gaskets,you are bringing the fingers up towards the top of the cover. This will work BUT as the disc wears the pressure it delivers will be less. The p/pl. needs to be checked thoroughly,as well as the cross-shaft bushings in the bell-housing. This is something that gets neglected most every time. These are usually gone and if they aren't gone,are badly worn,subsequently causing the clutch to lack proper adjustment to dis-engage. Hope this helps, Doug

[Deleted User]

I'm curious about the statement : "I can’t turn the driveshaft by hand, even in neutral"
Is this a result of translation or a symptom we should think about. I realise if the wheels are on the ground the shaft wont turn but what if he's talking of something else?

Roger ]

drdoug

Good point Roger

[Deleted User]

Hello

Tillant, it is a symptom...I'will try to explain
.at a standstill, the front drive shaft is fixed, and the rear drive shaft is free?
Here the two shafts turn sets
I have the manual... in English, not very easy for a beginner in this language, lol

54SuperWasp

@Ken: I don't know how you do it but, I think you are better in French than I am, and my first language is French! I'm glad if you can help too.
@Roger: The translation was good on this one. In fact, it was the easiest one for me. He really said he could not turn the drive-shaft by hand. But, as you said, dont know if it was with the wheels on the ground so, I will ask Pierre from here:
@Pierre de France: Pierre, Roger voulait savoir, lorsque tu disais que tu ne pouvais tourner l'arbre de transmission à la main, même au neutre, est-ce que les roues touchaient à terre?
Michel

[Deleted User]

Hello Michel

Pourquoi les roues? Je m'exprime mal, en fait la boite de vitesse est demontee, et si je tiens au point mort , l'arbre avant , a l'arriere il doit pouvoir tourner librement. non? E t la c est pas le cas Et quand je dit arbre, en fait se sont les demi-arbres sur la boite
merci Michel

54SuperWasp

Allô Pierre, il se demandait si tu avais essayé de tourner l'arbre pendant que les roues touchaient à terre... C'est déjà arrivé...Je vais expliquer alors que la boîte est démontée.
@Roger: OK, the gear box was opened ( so, not on the car) as he was trying to turn the transmission shaft ( I hope I'm correct here).
@Ken: Could you check my translation please?
Michel

hudsontech

Ah, Michel - you know there is a big difference between "Canadian" french and French french. The late Terraplane Kelly took some college courses - one of which was French. European vernacular (??) He took a trip on his motorcycle into Quebec - he showed up in my driveway in Maine a few days later disgusted as hell - he said "Dumb Canadians couldn't understand a word I said in the French I learned in the college course" LOL

Hudsonly,
Alex Burr
Memphis, TN

[Deleted User]

Well if the transmission is out of the car and its full of cold grease / oil . And was in low gear he may not have been able to turn it very easily. If it happens to be an overdrive unit and is in overdrive it "Wont" or rather CAN NOT turn backwards but would go the regular rotation. Other than that I dont know what to say with the info given,
Roger

54SuperWasp

@Alex: For me, French from France would compare to English from England for you. And there is slang in both language. On everyday conversation, it's quite easy as long as we can open our ears and can catch the main idea. For example: We all know what the word Yes! means. But, some people would hear the word Yeah or Yep! and suddenly, they would be completely lost...
@Pierre: Roger suggère que, si la transmission est pleine de graisse ou huile froide et qu'elle est à basse vitesse, tu ne pourrais tourner l'arbre facilement. Ou bien, si tu as l'option ''overdrive'' ( surmultiplication), et qu'elle est engagée, elle ne pourra pas tourner ou ne reviendra pas en arrière pour une rotation régulière. On voudrait encore plus de détails pour t'aider...
Michel
P.S. Thanks again guys!

[Deleted User]

Merci Michel
je vais faire quelques photos pour essayer d'expliquer le probleme demain. En premier lieu je n'ai pas l'overdrive, Hier j'ai constate quelque chose , j'ai reussi a faire tourner l'axe arriere sans faire tourner l'axe avant
Au depart je n'ai rien demonter de la boite elle meme, seulement les pieces externes pour remplacer les joints , la cloche avant , le croisillon , et la piece apres le croisillon , je ne sais comment l'appeler, ah si j'ai trouve sur le schema de la boite dans le manuel, le "speedometer gear housing"
Alors voila , cette piece est maintenue par trois visses , si je les desserres de quelques tours , ca fonctionne, si je resserre ca bloque de nouveau , Par ailleurs derriere cette piece il y a un roulement , enfile sur l'axe, piece n° 24, je pense que cet roulement a glisse sur l'axe vers l'exterieur, et que lorsque je serre la piece , elle s"appuie sur le roulement mal loge, et repousse l'axe vers l'interieur , le bloquant ainsi .
Voila j'espere que tu comprends , mais demain je ferai une video explicite que je t'enverrai

Pierrot

54SuperWasp

Pierre will take some more pictures and try to explain the problem tomorrow. First of all, he does not have overdrive. Yesterday he was able to turn the back driving-shaft ( he had the word ''axle'' here)without turnig the front one. At first, he had not taken all the transmission appart, only the external pieces to replace the seals, the front ''bell cover?'' ( the word in French was ''cloche''), the ''croisillon'' ( don't know what this word means) and the part after it, called the speedometer gear housing. This part is maintaned by 3 bolts. if he unbolts these a little bit, it works, but if he bolts it again, it blocks. behind this part, there is a bearing, on the ''axle'' part number 24 as per the manual. He thinks this bearing went of his normal place trough the exterior, and when he bolts the part, this one steps on the bearing that is not at the right place, so, it push the ''axle'' at the exterior. And it blocks.
A video should come tomorrow...
@Ken: Look at this and try to correct what I was not able to translate. It's quite too technical for me...Michel

drdoug

Has he had the transmission apart? If he has,he must be certain that he did not drop one of the roller bearings in the front input shaft. this is where the main shaft rides. If that is OK,then we need to see pictures of the trans with the top removed.

[Deleted User]

http://youtu.be/cPvk3Uymals

drdoug

Well, if you look,the rear snap-ring should go flush down into the groove at the back. The rear housing captures only the snap ring. It appears that it is NOT seated into the rear which can only be one thing. It has dropped one of the rollers in the front. If the rear housing is put back on and tightened,does the front input shaft turn/.,if it doesn't,this tells you the 2 shafts are pinned against one another and is causing it to lock up. At this point you will need to remove the bell-housing and both shift shaft rods and pull it apart.

[Deleted User]

I noticed he turned the rear shaft and the front shaft was still. Then he tightened the screws and you could see the front shaft turn with the whole assembly. Sounds like Clutch guy is on to something ,
Roger

54SuperWasp

@Ken: I think I'll let you do the translation for this one. But I'll try it...
@Pierre; Il semble que Clutch guy a trouvé quelque chose, en rapport avec le jonc ( snap-ring) qui devrait être à ras dans la rainure à l'arrière. Le carter arrière ne capte seulement que le jonc. Il appert qu'il ne soit pas bien bien assis à l'arrière, ce qui ne signifie qu'une chose. (Pour la prochaine phrase, je suis moins certain de la traduction): Cela a fait descendre un des roulements à l'avant.si le carter arrière est remis en place et boulonné, est-ce que l'arbre avant tourne/..s'il ne tourne pas, cela vous dit que les 2 arbres sont coincés un sur l'autre et que cela le fait barrer. À ce moment, il te faudra enlever le carter d'embrayage et les deux arbres de commandes et les défaire. Michel
Thanks Clutch guy and Roger.

[Deleted User]

Merci Michel et remercie chaleureusement guy et Roger pour moi et pour leur aide
Maintenant un detail, pour la phrase dont yu n'est pas sur "s'il ne tourne pas ne serait pas plutot ..."si il tourne" car c 'est le cas , une fois le carter arriere ressere les deux arbres tournent ensembles , coinces
Merci pour cette petite precision avant que je ne demonte.....quelle galere lol

54SuperWasp

@Roger & Clutch guy, Pierre wants to warmly thank you for your help. From what I translated, he wants to be sure of a detail: he said that when the rear housing is put back on and tightened, the front input shaft turns, and the two shafts turn together too.
Does this give you more info? Michel

[Deleted User]

Well the info it gives me is that it should not do that. The rear shaft should not push on the front shaft so hard it can turn it .What Clutch Guy sugested was one of the small needle / roller bearings fell out of place.
I made a small drawing to maybe help show what may have happened. Item K3-3 in the exploded view represents the small rollers.
I hope this helps , may not be what has happened but fits the symptoms,
Roger

54SuperWasp

Thanks Roger, when they say a picture's worth a thousand words... That sketch of yours helped me a lot to understand the problem that may have occured here. I will tell Pierre right away. Michel
@Pierre: Selon les infos reçues de ta part, cela n'aurait pas dû se produire ainsi. Clutch guy suggérait qu'il se pourrait qu'un petit roulement se soit glissé tel que le dessin de Roger le démontre. À vérifier. Peut-être n'est-ce pas cela qui est arrivé, mais cela correspond aux symptômes dont tu nous a fait part. Bonne chance! Michel

[Deleted User]

Yeah ,talking was getting us no place fast,
Roger

[Deleted User]

Michel
Cest bien cela , je viens de trouver 2 petits rouleaux au fond , la je suis dans la merde lol , mdr
Peut les remettre en place en demontant, ou faut il changer la piece?, Combien de rouleaux doit il y avoir?
Merci