Hydramatic Starter, Broken nose-cones

[Deleted User]

Any thoughts here? Broke the nose cone on my '54's Hydramatic starter about 2 months ago. Swapped it out for a quality rebuild that was converted to 12V. That one has now broken. Happened a week ago on the way home from San Simeon. (Got me home though) These are two different starters, refurbished by two different people. The car is timed to strict TDC, and battery checks in at about 13.5V. In both cases it was the cast iron nose cone that broke and the drive gear is fine. My feeling is that this is co-incidence, but would like to know if anyone has any thoughts out there ?

RL Chilton

I think it's two things, Rudy. Coincidence and metal fatigue. More nose cones can break if you hook up a 6V starter to a 12V system, but if you are having the starters re-wound, then you shouldn't have a problem except for the above.

SuperDave

Check your flywheel ring gear for damage before you replace the starter again.

[Deleted User]

Good thought on the ring gear. Will do. Yes, I agree with Mr. Chilton. We'll see how it goes. Thanks guys.

lostmind

I don't recall if the hydro uses studs with a shoulder like the standard trans. ,
but I know it causes alignment problems if you use bolts.
I'm having a memory problem , but I recall a problem with the rebuilders using Ford starter drives, causing a bind.
Just throwing it out to see if someone remembers.

PAULARGETYPE

OVER THE YEARS HI HAVE SEEN MANY BROKEN NOSES I THINK AS STATED ABOVE THE HOUSINGS ARE JUST GETTING FRAGILE THE FORD STARTER BENDIX COULD ALSO BE A PROBLEM

brumac

Hi All, regarding the broken nose cones, does anyone know if the starter drive is hitting the cast iron of the cone when it is activated? If it is it could be the source of breakage as cast iron is good in compression but will fail miserably in tension. I am not sure how to keep the drive from making contact as it's been many years since I had one apart, but someone here will. Bruce

Lee ODell

Walt Mordenti showed me the aftermarket 12V starter and adapter on is stepdown at San Simeon. You could email him for more details. It's in the club roster. Looks like a good alternative to breaking starter nose cones.

Lee O'Dell

[Deleted User]

Thanks all; we'll just keep working on it...

Jim_G

I broke 3 hydramatic starters in short order on my 6V Hornet. I then realized that my battery cables were too small. I replaced the cables with new 00 size cables and have not had a problem since then.

Jim G.

dave s

After breaking three nose cones, I found that with 12 volts, the problem comes when the timing is not right on and engine kicks back. Check your timing.

Ol racer

FYI

I adapted a Mopar 318 Mini Starter to a couple of mine since Mopar has the same pitch ring gear as Hudson. However, both Cars have GM400 Trans Adaptors so can use nuts on backside.

Park_W

Maybe it shouldn't be surprising that the nose cones break even when the starter is converted to 12v. Note how much faster it spins the engine. So, even with the proper conversion, the starter is still delivering a fair bit more torque than with 6v.

EssexAdv

A friend of mine in FLA had a 12 volt Hornet. I started it up and off went the nose cone. He did a bit of research and found that the problem was the rear most bushing. When it was hit by the extra wallop it would move out of place. He brazed a new bushing in place and honed I to size... never had a problem again..
This is what he said... I didn't witness it but I do know he never had the issue happen again in many, many miles of driving.

Lew Mendenhall

Glowplug

Lew, Thanks for sharing the tip about the bushing.

For me, rebuilding of any Hudson electrical item that spins or turns includes new bushings or bearings.

GrimGreaser

Here's my my modified Mopar starter. It took a bit to work the bugs out since I was working blind with the engine/trans in the car. Works great now.

Ol racer

GrimGreaser, Nice Job fabricating the Adapter to urilize a Mopar Mini Starter, far better than the one I made in my garage which works fine roo. Is it possible to dublicate your Adapter for others to urilize?

GrimGreaser

I've been thinking about it, and I have the tools to measure and duplicate what I have made. I just don't have the time now. I have drawings and CAD files, but it still took a ton of hand fitting.

Ol racer

Well keep the thought since the end result is worth it.

[Deleted User]

Maybe the easiest thing to do would be to just go back to 6V for starting. Anybody have any experience with using two 6V batteries in series to run the car, and only tapping in to one of them for starting ?

Ol racer

FYI
Back in the 60's we did the opposite using 2 - 6V Batteries thru solonoids giving 12V to aid starting particularly in the cold winters then run on 6V.... Later the 'Orpin Switch' came out eliminating using all the solonoids. I think you could do the same thing in reverse (Start on 6V & run on 12V) with some thought...

[Deleted User]

After having some break downs myself I ended up with buying a battery with “open leads” sort of how they use to look.
Just drill a hole in the plate were you get 6V and run a separate cable for the starter and run the rest of the car on 12V.
I used 8V for mine just get a little more starter speed, by listening there are a total different sound, earlier it was quite a hard “Bang”.
Have been using this all summer without any issues.

[Deleted User]

OK ! Where are they available? Custom battery house, Batteries Plus ? Thanks for the tip.

briankarleyhotmailcouk

In case this helps, I have obtained a new 12v mini starter from Terry Pittman, at Snap Rebuilders. 2140 South West Temple. South Salt Lake, UT 84115, Phone: 801-467-2902. I have not had it installed for long, but it seems to be working fine. I think this was the first one they produced (they used a standard Autolite Hudson starter as a pattern). I imagine they could produce more. This is fitted to a 1953 Hornet with hydramatic transmission.
Regards,
Brian.

[Deleted User]

Hey thanks, I'll check it out....Turned the problem this time was a broken Bendix, which the rebuilders warrantied. Will check with Snap though. Thanks, Bob

Lee ODell

Brian
How much is th 12V mini starter you bought? Sounds like a solution to the broken starters. That will save the 6V starters for the 6V users.
Lee O'Dell

EssexAdv

I have been driving hornet for more than 30years. I have never converted one to 12 volt. My buddy in FLA did it to put AC in the car. Without sounding critical, I'm curious why are you guys using 12 volt on starters?

Lew

[Deleted User]

Those old National batteries were rated at only 100 amp/hrs. I believe a modern Group 2 6v is twice that. So if you take half of a 700 CCA 12V battery, that's probably still plenty of power, I'm guessing. (O'Reilly Auto Parts rates it Group CG2 6V battery at 230 amp/hrs.)

I drove a '53 Hornet for 5 years/ 50K miles with a six volt system with no complaints. Also drove a '53 Jet through Edmonton, Alberta's worst winter in 50 years (-30F in Jan.) on 6V. I don't even think the headlights are that bad. Other than the brake lights and turn signals, I'm fine with 6V and, frankly that's what the cars were designed for. Changed to 12V because the wife wanted A/C. 12V gives you a lot more options, but it has its drawbacks too. We'll find a solution to the starter prob; there are several out there. Too late to take the A/C gear back anyhow; it's already in the car. LOL

[Deleted User]

Most of these starter issues can be blamed on two things . Operator error or a hard to start engine (out of tune ,fuel bowl empty from evaporation,weak ignition system choke not set correctly etc).
This new crap gas evaporates out of the vented carb soon after shut down. An electric fuel pump for priming is almost a must anymore .If all is correct on the motor pumping gas twice an tapping the "Start" button and about 2 revolutuions should get it going.
Even a big straight 8 on 6 volts wont sound like its going to go cause its barely turning but will.
Remember these could be fitted for a hand crank in the 30's & 40's and would start that way.

briankarleyhotmailcouk

Re the price of the mini starter, sorry I can't find the paperwork at the moment (it was a while ago) I just didn't get around to installing it straight away). Though I'm sure Snap can quote you over the phone.
Regards,
Brian.

[Deleted User]

Their batteries look very interesting. Thanks !!