EFI on a Super 6

BillUSN1

I had posted on the HET forum since I joined there first and then heard about this one and was asked to share here.

Since I'm not the shy type I was happy to share what little I know on the subject.

I mentioned in my intro that when I retired from the USN I started my own little EFI conversion company for classic vehicles.

I'm big into IH and have ventured out to Studebakers, Stovebolts, even added EFI to my little Italian Mini Cooper(Innocenti).

I just picked up a 49 Coupe to play with.

Looks like a previous owner used some aircraft stripper on the entire body and then left it in one of the very rare PNW rain showers at some point.

Got lots of things to do to it before we tag it but one of my first modifications to any classic I own is to pull the carb and install EFI.
That's right after I get it running to make sure it's mechanically sound.

Well we dragged this one home and after soaking the cylinders and turning it over by hand we decided to give her a try. It wasn't long before we got her to roar to life after a 12yr nap.
Wasn't as smooth as I would like so we checked the compression and found 1 and 6 are basically at 0psi. It appears I have a couple sticky valves. So I fogged her down with some sea foam and let her set.
Guess I will be pulling the inner fender and yanking the lifter cover off to get a closer look.
I also noted a lot of slop in the distr shaft.
So I think I will check that out when I yank the distr for the conversion for EFI timing control.

So while I had some time I decided to get a head start on the EFI conversion.

I yanked the carb and set it up with custom CnC TBI adapter to mount the throttle body to the stock 2bbl manifold.
Looks like minor modification to the factory throttle shaft is all it will take to have it working.


I yanked the carb.
Removed the studs.
Installed the new gasket and adapter plate.
Installed Throttle body.

Looking better already.
Something to keep in mind is the system runs on 12v so as most I'm sure already do, I'll be converting to either a full 12v system or at least partly a 12v system. Haven't decided to have the original gen rebuilt as an alternator or just install an alt and keep the original gen in a box?

More to follow as I get some more time.

Can you insert pic in line with the text?

Kdancy

Bill, have you determined if the engine is original or has it been changed out to a 308?
The Wasp I working on will be converted to 12v so that won't be an issue.
I'm assuming when you convert the distributor, it will be set up for 12v negative ground?

BillUSN1

ARGGGGGG
This posting is so frustrating.
1/2 the time you lose all the text or you get the red bar of death.

I haven't pulled the engine number but assume it's the original.
I'm always game for more cubic inches!!

Ok abbreviated version.now.
The system needs a good 12v neg gnd charging system. I plan to run an alt and then run a voltage reducer to the dash so I can retain it all stock if I can. If not I will look into having the gauges reworked and converted to 12v.

The system is full fuel and timing control so the distr has to be converted to a compatible signal.
Just for reference....
No a pertronix will not work.
The system uses a VR-variable reluctance (magnetic) pickup to trigger the ignition module.
There are many different ones out there. I normally use the mopar or the ford pickup but have also found some foreign engines have smaller pickups. It just depends on the distr. I did a 59 triumph TR3 that had a pretty small distr.
Here is the stovebolt conversion. Before and after.

GrimGreaser

Hey Bill, on these Hudsons you can take a later model Mopar six distributor and with just a few modifications drop it right into the Hudson motor. Pull the internals out of the Hudson dizzy, the shaft assembly, and it will slip right into the Mopar dist. Then you use the upper section of the Mopar shaft with the rotor and reinstall the pickup plate. Trim just a bit off the Mopar distributor and it will slip right into the Hudson motor. The Mopar distributor can then trigger either a Mopar electric box or a GM HEI unit.  I used a OEM P/N 30-3690 that I got from Autozone.

Ol racer

FYI
EFI... Way to go for Torque.Sounds interesting..... Suggest at least lap the valves and perhaps install a timing chain if not up to a total rebuild...
Incidently, 
Ron fellows in Tx 915 877 9025 hudnutz39@sbcglobal.net sells converted Chevy 6cyl HEI Distributors that bolt right into Hudson Mtr's that will 'trigger' Throttle Body Sensors.

BillUSN1

Thanks for the tips.
About $25 on rockauto for the dodge may be worth checking into.
If I still have to use parts from the original distr then it may not really gain much.
I like to keep from modifying original parts when I can, just for the q-tip guys that need all original parts.
But it may save me the time of machining the hardened lobes off the upper shaft with my little 7x10 lathe!

I do a little search for the HEI also.
I don't think there's an old engine out there that someone hasn't adapted a HEI for.
I did one for my IH 6cyl.

Ol racer

FYI
I use an older GM Alternator on my Hudson's with the internal regulator & works fine.(Late 70's to mid '80's).I modify the original Generator bracket along with a GM top brkt to adjust. I also use a slightly narrow belt or swap the Alt Pully to a wider pully. I use a Ford IVR (Intermittent Voltage Regulator) to reduce voltage to the Gauges and naturally chg all the bulbs to 12V.

 I use a universal ceramic reducer (60's Chevy) for the Ign points, however reducer not needed with Electronic Ign.If use a Chevy 6 HEI Dist you need to lengthen the shaft by using rhe lower shaft from the Hudson. Note the Hudson Dist Shaft 'lower End' is 'Offset' into the Oil Pump Gear. Attached pic of Chevy 6 HEI Dist I converted by lengthening shaft....

BillUSN1

Thanks for info, distr looks good. Looks like you sleeved the shaft extension.

I still need to pull my distr to see where all the play is. From what I've read so far it looks like the oil pump gear is a common problem. I can rotate the rotor about 45* or more.

My IH's use the 3 wire delco alt which is the alt of choice over the more modern 1 wire alternators.

RL Chilton

Bill-

I think you certainly got our attention with your conversion.  Highly interesting and informative.  

As far as posting pics in within your text, after you "attach a file", hold your cursor over the picture and click on  "Insert Image".  After that, simply click within your comment area--  after the picture you inserted and keep on typing until you get to another spot where you want to insert another picture.  

BillUSN1

I spent a few minutes looking at the stock distr and evaluating the conversion for EFI use.
I also looked at the design. My distr looks to be in pretty good condition with no real play in the bushings at all.




I did notice that the bottom of the drive tab appears to have been repaired at one time with some brazing.



After looking at the layout it seems like it would be a pretty straight forward conversion using the Mopar reluctor and pickup.





But that would mean I would need to modify the original distr in order to make it work with the EFI. The only draw back to that is there would be one less distr around.

So I started thinking about alternatives like the Mopar distr, but that also required removing the distr shaft and grafting it on to the Mopar distr.
And it's been mentioned that Ron Fellows makes an HEI conversion. I did a search and didn't come up with any pics or a real description of the conversion. It seemed that I read you still needed to send him your original distr for the conversion.
So if someone has pics or specifics please let me know.

My thought was to try and find a donor that would allow it to be modified without using any of the original distr parts. And it needs to work with EFI................

Well, what about a stock GM V6 EFI distr?




I did some initial measurements and the Autolite looks to have an OD of 1.060".
The GM is 1.250, so that can be turned down to fit. The length of the housing that enters the block is 1.5".
My thought was a sleeve could be added to the GM to help provide additional support since the lower bushing would be lost once the housing is shortened.

Then we get to the shaft length.
Well look at that....the length from the mounting surface to the end of the shaft is the same!



So that leaves me with the drive on the bottom.
From my measurements it looks like the stock tab is .125" and is offset .065". If my math was right?
The GM tab was .170 thick. Which means it could be ground .045 on one side to match the offset but leaves me .020 thin on the other.
I would also need to add the round flange at the bottom.

So the question would be...given that there is no load at all other then simply spinning the shaft (no points drag now) would welding an turning the GM shaft work, or even easier, would brazing and cutting suffice?

The last thought is since the GM shaft is a smaller diameter this is a one time shot if it's welded.
A better option may be to cut the shaft below where it enters the block, and use a sleeve and roll/spring pins to retain each section in the sleeve. That way the upper shaft can be removed from the housing for servicing.

In the end it would be a plug and play GM EFI distr.

Ol racer

Your on the right track and interesting the identical lengths, but keep in mind the distributor lower housing has to be machined down to clear the crank counter balance or just use the inner shaft and the bottom end slot is 'offset' to one side into the oil pump.

GrimGreaser

Here's a diagram of the distributor/pump layout.  Does not show the counter balance, but it is very close.  You will need to match the profile of the Hudson shaft to keep things friendly.

Glowplug

When contemplating the modification of an OEM distributor there is another option for the shaft as the attached pictures indicate, there are still replacement shafts for Hudson Autolite distributors available.

The pictures are of ONE shaft I bought off eBay and plan to mate to a Chrysler product electronic distributor 

BillUSN1

Thanks for the assist guys.

Oldfarmer, are those from a private stock?



On a good note:

Thanks to another member on here, I now have a twin single manifold and a couple spare distributors on the way. woo hoo...twin 1bbl EFI on the super 6.

I was informed that my concern for the rarity of the distributor is unwarranted and there is a pretty good supply of good used cores out there.

So my plan is to perform a conversion on a stock distr for EFI timing control and I will also continue the work on the 4.3 V6 distr conversion.

As the parts arrive and I start the conversions I will post the progress pics.

On another good note: I picked up a complete Black and Decker valve and seat grinding set. I figured it will pay for itself if I do the valves and seats when I do the guides on this 262.

And......

I also picked up an Index 40H milling machine, vintage of about 1940, still in good shape. Already started making metal chips fly!

Now I just have to learn how to use the new toy!

It should make machining the drive tab on the bottom of the distr shaft much easier and maybe even straight!

So It's been a good weekend already.

RL Chilton

That's a good haul, there!  I like the valve grinding kit.  Looking forward to the progress pics.  Thanks for sharing. 

faustmb

Bill, looks good. I have a spare distributor or two if you need another donor.

Keep the pics coming.
Matt

BillUSN1

Hey Matt, Thanks for the offer. I'll definitely keep you in mind.

I got a little time this weekend to play a little more with the GM distr.

First I cleaned it up a little.




Then I measured and marked the location for the length of the stock distr.
1.5"



Then cut the GM housing.



The diameter of the housing in the block is 1.060 on the stock distr and 1.250 on the GM.
So I turned it down.



Then test fit in the block. You can't really tell but the shaft is not seated in the drive gear.



Now that I knew it would fit, I added a bead on the lower portion of the housing to provide additional support. Then turned it down to size. The housing was about 1" so I had to build it up .060"




Then test fit again.



Now it was time to adjust the shaft.
As noted earlier the drive tab is .125 thick and the GM shaft tab is .170.
So I made use of my new mill and removed the .045 from one side making the tab now offset like the Hudson shaft and the correct thickness.





And now the housing fits and the shaft drops into the drive gear slot.
Note the shaft is now inset in the distr.









Now I need to decide if I want to add a lower bushing and if I want to build up the shaft at the drive gear tab for a full circle like the original.
The GM shaft is .425 dia and the stock is .500.
If I build it up and then turn it down to the .500, it will prevent me from removing the shaft from the distr.
The alternative is to cut the shaft like most do with the dodge distr and use a sleeve and roll pins to connect the upper and lower shafts. Then I could match the dimensions of the stock shaft.
The good part is no factory Hudson distributors were harmed during this conversion.

BillUSN1

Big day...............
Got my new dual carb intake in the mail!
Thanks to a member on here. I also received a few spare distributors so as I get time I will be doing an electronic conversion on one of them.

But I decided to show those interested in my dual 1bbl set up.
I had already developed the 1bbl carb to 1bbl EFI adapter that works with most any make of 1bbl manifold from AMC to Zypher.

So this conversion will be fairly straight forward.

Here's the new manifold. I chose the early version since my coupe is a 49.




First thing is remove the studs.



Then simply bolt the adapters to the manifold.



And then bolt on the 1bbl throttle bodies.




You can even flip them around incase you want to push the throttles instead of pull them. The adapter will clock every 90* to fit about any installation you desire. Even put the 2 opposite and use a bell crank for push/pull set up.




Here's the other side.

Ol racer

Looking real good...Thanks for keeping us posted on your progress.

ski4life65

Wow Bill. You didn't waste any time. Lookin good

Lee ODell

Looks very good Bill. Do you plan to adapt the Twin-H air cleaners to the injectors too?

Lee O'Dell

Glowplug

Happiness is having the tools to make the dreams into reality.

Great work Bill.

BillUSN1

Thanks guys.

If a twin H air filter fell in my lap I would definitely use it. But I haven't really started a search for a set yet. My first priority was just finding a manifold and, thanks to a member on here, I have that now.

As for the tools required.....

I've always told people that it's cheaper to buy the tool and learn how to use it to do the job then to pay someone else to do the work for you. At least you still own the tool when your done.

But, that being said, I still have a long way to go. I design and make a crude prototype of the adapters and then send the "Paint" picture with dimensions to the CNC shop I use. Then they make my stuff look good.

I have developed my own line of adapters for the 1, 2, and 4bbl manifolds because what I saw avail was not something I wanted to provide to my customers with the EFI conversion kits.

But if I had my way...I would have my own CnC, along with a full engine machine shop for boring, line honing...etc

It's just the ROI thing that I can't justify. If the machine cost $10k and I only use once every 2yrs, and the machine shop only charges $100 per hole, then how to recoup my investment?



I wanted a lathe for a long time, after missing several on CL I finally bit the bullet and bought one of the HF 7x10 bench top lathes. It does great for what it is and I can do a lot of the little things I want to do. But it is limited by it's size and I can't fit a full size distr housing in it.




I just used it last night to machine one of the Hudson distributor advance shafts for the conversion.

Stock



Ruffed in with my angle grinder.



Turned down to .640



Slip fit.

BillUSN1

To go along with my project creep threads, I was also installing the prototype TBI injection on the 262.

Here's a couple videos of the first 2 runs.
The first one is about 7min and the 2nd is only a couple min long.

http://youtu.be/ZebfFYeAJtw

http://youtu.be/X3et4RrqxcM

Kdancy

this is good info Bill, when you get it sorted out I'll place an order.

faustmb

Looks great, awesome work Bill. My Travelall will get your EFI before my Hudson does, but I think this is an awesome for a rock solid driver.

Matt

Ol racer

Bill,
  Ive thought for a long time that E.F.I.would be a good fit for Hudson since Hudson are  a High Torque Motor.. I almost bought a complete Chevy 6 System at a Swap Meet but didnt because im not savy enough with EFI to do the conversion. Once perfected you should get a lot of interest..

 I already use a Chevy 6 HEI Distributor though and have worked with Mechanical Fuel Injection for racing....

GrimGreaser

Bill, your setup is at the top of my 'WANT' list...  My TBI unit is on my shelf just itching to go.

BillUSN1

Thanks guys.

After laying out my standard harness, I measured each leg and have a new custom harness for both the 2bbl and the dual setup on the way.

I chose to pass the harness through the firewall on the drivers side of the engine. There looked like a lot of room for the ECM under the dash on both sides but I felt if I added after market AC later, the drivers side would be better.

The support just above the column should be perfect to mount the ECM to. I may have to move the flasher to the bottom.

I have been very busy with orders for my other kits so I don't get much time to play.

I did come up with a pretty simple fix for the throttle linkage on the 2bbl.

I simply copied the connection from the carb and made a little bracket to bolt onto the throttle body.

My set up was missing a couple of factory springs so if someone has some detailed pics of the different sections of the linkage I would appreciate it.

I also reluctantly, pulled the valve covers for another valve adjustment.

I can see why this is not performed very often and leads to many problems. What a pain!

I would not do this on a hot engine! And you would have to warm it back up once you got the inner fender out.

I went with the .012"/.019" cold service bulletin settings.

Here's a couple pics of the throttle for the 2bbl. I don't know if I have a complete twin H linkage but that will be worked out also.
I try to make my system bolt on so the vehicle can be returned to original without much trouble later if desired.

Kdancy

Bill, have you ever known anyone that actually pulled mods back off a vehicle and bolted stock items back up?

BillUSN1

LOL,

Yep, when they sell their current one to fix up a better one and move all their good stuff over.

Like culling fish.

Throw the little one back for the bigger fish.

I have lots of guys that remove their EFI and bolt the carb back on before they sell the vehicle. Then bolt it on the next one.

New tune burned to the chip and they're good to go.