Hudson - Toyota wet clutch plate

bob ward
bob ward Senior Contributor
edited July 2014 in Street Rods
10" Hudson wet clutch plate with Kevlar linings rather than cork and a 26mm 21 spline centre. 
Ideal for putting a 5 speed Toyota gearbox behind a Hudson engine.




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Comments

  • RL Chilton
    RL Chilton Administrator, Member
    Have you mated the two, yet?  
  • 46HudsonPU
    46HudsonPU Administrator
    Ok, you've got my interest...  Need a lot more information, details - and PLENTY  of photos...
  • StillOutThere
    StillOutThere Expert Adviser
    Okay, so this is originally a Hudson cork type disc but the corks have been removed and Kevlar glued on.  That correct so far?   Now what?  The Toyo 5 speed bolts up to the Hudson bell housings?  Adapter required?  Will fit into a '40 and earlier frame?   Interested to know more.  
    A 5speed in my Terraplane would be a kick!
  • ArkieJazz
    ArkieJazz Member
    Wayne, you have GOT to be kidding! I know you just had a birthday, but it wasn't your 90th one
  • Geoff
    Geoff Senior Contributor
    What model Toyota transmission?
  • bob ward
    bob ward Senior Contributor
    edited July 2014
    This is happening on a 35 H8. 

    Its a standard Hudson cork clutch plate with Kevlar linings, these linings are common in forklift oil clutches. The 6 spline centre has been replaced with one made to suit the Toyota input shaft. I'm keeping the Hudson flywheel and pressure plate.

    I've made a H8/Toyota bell housing which uses the Hudson throwout fork, and connects to the existing clutch pedal mechanism. 

    The gearbox is one of the G52 variants out of what we saw here as the HiAce van. A modern gearbox is huge compared to the original, and its a tight but doable fit in the available space. The gear lever will come through the floor 2" or 3" further back than the original.



  • lostmind
    lostmind Expert Adviser
    Take lots of photos , you may be starting something here
  • StillOutThere
    StillOutThere Expert Adviser
    Wayne, you have GOT to be kidding! I know you just had a birthday, but it wasn't your 90th one
    Well I checked and the 8 speed from a '15 Audi won't work so I've got to find alternatives, Bubba!

  • TOM-WA-
    TOM-WA- Senior Contributor
    SEEMS LIKE ALOT OF WORK AND I DON'T GET THE POINT...


  • terraplane8
    terraplane8 Senior Contributor
    It would be awful having to change gears so often. Maybe 2nd, 4th and 5th would be the gears one would actually use?
  • Huddy42
    Huddy42 Senior Contributor
    Bob, what I do after having the Kevlar glued on, drill the Kevlar out of existing cork holes, one at 12 o'clock,one at 3 'o'clock ,one at 6 o'clock and another at 9 o'clock in the centre row of holes.Any questions give me a call.
  • JasonNC
    JasonNC Expert Adviser
    How about just replacing the old cork with the Kevlar and using that in a standard Hudson wet clutch setup?  Is that feasible?   

  • Geoff
    Geoff Senior Contributor
     Th main point of such a conversion is that fifth gear is actually a 20% overdrive.
  • bob ward
    bob ward Senior Contributor
    JasonNC, in recent years the kevlar faced clutch is what has mainly been used in HET clutches down here, so that is what I went with for this project. 

    There are no problems with using a kevlar faced clutch plate in a standard HET wet clutch if you wish to do so, there are many of them in service down here.

    Kevlar facings with ATF are what Huddy42 (Les Pendlebury), Australia's main HET clutch guy has been using for a long time. Les may chime in with the history of why he moved from cork to kevlar facings.


    TOM-WA-  This project is a lot of work, and I'm having fun doing it. The point is to look after an 80 year old engine.
  • TOM-WA-
    TOM-WA- Senior Contributor
    BOB:

    DIDN'T REALIZE YOU WERE DOWN UNDER...THAT EXPLAINS "ALOT"  LOL

    IF THIS IS JUST SOMETHING YOU ARE DOING CAUSE YOU WANT TO HAVE A PROJECT TO OCCUPY YOUR TIME THEN MORE POWER TO YOU.

    I THOUGHT IT WAS SOMETHING YOU WERE DOING TO GET THE CAR RUNNING THUS MY POST
  • terraplane8
    terraplane8 Senior Contributor
    I heard that Pat Macdonald of the Railton Club is working on an overdrive adaption for the Hudsons - that is a good idea as it's hard to think that the modern close-ratio 5-speed would be suitable for the low-speed engines.
  • Huddy42
    Huddy42 Senior Contributor
    JasonN C that is what we do, did my 1942 when it come from the USA 25 years ago ,never had a problem, using ATF Dexron 3, same amount of fluid.
  • 46HudsonPU
    46HudsonPU Administrator

    Bob - Left you a PM on the Kevlar clutch modification/work, mainly pertaining to those focused on the application and use of the Kevlar.

    Did you do the work on the clutch yourself? How does the different material hold-up, as compared to the cork?  How does it interact with the Hudsonite (or ATF Dexron 3) and the flywheel?  From the comments about it, this is a generally accepted update to the wet clutch (at least 'down under')...

    Is this something that the typical 'do it yourself' backyard mechanic can do on their own?  Can you go into detail, describing (in step-by-step detail), of the work done on the clutch itself.  Also provide information on the Kevlar material used (the manufacturer, model, part no., etc..), type of glue/adhesive used, the surface preparation(s), etc.?

    What are the costs on something of this nature, as opposed to the conventional rebuilding of the clutch (i.e., replacing the cork)?

  • bob ward
    bob ward Senior Contributor
    Rick, I had the clutch facings done by these guys, following a recommendation by Les Pendlebury (Huddy42 on the forum), Australia's go to HET clutch guy for many years. I believe that Les abandoned cork for kevlar maybe 30 years ago.


    I sent BCA the clutch plate, told them the finished thickness I wanted, and back it came all ready to go. I doubt the process lends itself to DIY.

    Most manual forklifts use wet clutches with kevlar linings, you are looking for a place that deals with the industrial part of the brake and clutch market if you want this done.

    Price was AU$160 plus tax and postage
  • JasonNC
    JasonNC Expert Adviser
    I tried to post a message on here about the feasibility of an American company duplicating what was done in Australia.  Anyone know of company over here that does or might undertake replacing the cork with Kevlar.  It never made it to the board.  Is what I'm suggesting a form of blasphemy?
  • bob ward
    bob ward Senior Contributor
    edited August 2014
    JasonNC, I'm sure there will be several dozens if not hundreds of companies in the US which bond kevlar onto clutch plates on a daily basis. An oil clutch is very common in modern forklifts, while they are obsolete in cars they are very much in use in industry.

    That a post you composed didn't appear on the board is probably more to do with the forum software than intervention by wrathful HET gods.  ;)
  • bob ward
    bob ward Senior Contributor
    A bit more progress, I've finished machining and drilling the H8/Toyota bell housing. 

    A couple of photos to show the relative sizes of the original and 5 speed boxes. The 5 speed just fits in the available space between end of the H8 and the chassis X members.

    And a couple more photos showing the gearbox in place.


  • StillOutThere
    StillOutThere Expert Adviser
    It would be awful having to change gears so often. Maybe 2nd, 4th and 5th would be the gears one would actually use?
    I've driven a 16 speed "Road Ranger" in a diesel truck.  Manually selected all.  No not all were employed empty but fully loaded, and with variables of terrain, most every gear was used.  

    I have one hill coming to my house where a gear between second and high in my '34 Terraplane would most certainly be desirable every time.

    Appreciate the effort going into this project and looking forward to written experience of the results.
  • JasonNC
    JasonNC Expert Adviser
    Bob, what I do after having the Kevlar glued on, drill the Kevlar out of existing cork holes, one at 12 o'clock,one at 3 'o'clock ,one at 6 o'clock and another at 9 o'clock in the centre row of holes.Any questions give me a call.
    What is the purpose of drilling out these four holes?
  • Huddy42
    Huddy42 Senior Contributor
    Jason, it was an experiment to see if this helped in the sticking of the Hudson / Terraplane clutch to the flywheel, can't say if it helped or not, which we all know is a common problem with these wet clutches,the Kevlar works extremely well with ATF fluid, have done many over the years this way, have had one in my 1942 Brougham for over 25 years. Mine still sticks, but, I had installed that before I started drilling the holes.
  • Frankvintagefullflowcom
    Frankvintagefullflowcom Senior Contributor
    I'd imagine every Hudson wet clutch fan is aware of the old "stick on the pedal" trick to relieve pressure on the disk during periods on non-use. The obvious question that comes to mind is the effect of that practice on the pressure-plate application springs. Additional compression for extended periods is thought to have a detrimental effect on the life of the spring.
    My unsubstantiated opinion is that the minimal degree of extra spring compression will never make a detectable difference on the function of the clutch, especially if one was to ascertain the point at which the pedal travel actually releases pressure on the disc (disk?) so as to cause only the minimum plate travel necessary to keep the danged thing from sticking. The plate travel distance between full application and release is probably only a sixteenth or less.
    I believe the up-side of that procedure far outweighs the downsides of having chunks of your corks ripped out of their faces when attempting to "un-stick" a Hudson wet clutch.
    F

  • Geoff
    Geoff Senior Contributor
    My recommendation is a simple one - hold your foot on the clutch with the engine idling for a few seconds before switching the motor off, then release it  when the engine has stopped.  This spreads the lubricant over the corks, which stops it sticking to the flywheel.    Works for me!
  • JasonNC
    JasonNC Expert Adviser
    Assuming I can find a company that will replace the corks with Kevlar, what should the thickness of the Kevlar be?  
  • Geoff
    Geoff Senior Contributor
    The same as the corks - 1/16" each side of the plate. 
  • Huddy42
    Huddy42 Senior Contributor
    Jason, overall thickness of .225, note in the first photo from Bob Ward the grooves in the Kevlar, this is a must
     
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